Vinyl exceeds CDs
Join Our Community Subscribe to Paul's PostsYesterday we learned that sales of vinyl have outstripped CDs for the first time in decades. An article posted in Rolling Stone Magazine (which I have not yet read) made the rounds at RMAF, yesterday. I haven’t yet figured out if this means sales of CDs are continuing their downward spiral or vinyl’s picking up steam, but whatever the implications, it’s certainly a twist of events.
And speaking of vinyl, one of the great treats of a consumer tradeshow like RMAF is the chance for our Hi-Fi Family to gather together and enjoy what we all are interested in, music and 2-channel audio.
Reviewer Michael Fremer of Stereophile and Analog Planet fame was generous enough to bring his collection of prized vinyl to our room and play it to a packed house for an hour. Just check out the crowd. I could barely squeeze into this standing room only group outside the few prized seats in our listening area to get this picture in the first place.
What a treat! Mikey pulled from his arsenal a prized copy of Joni Mitchel’s Court and Spark to start the afternoon off, and I don’t believe anyone in the room had heard such glorious music. All were transfixed with the vinyl he played. I had chills running down my spine listening to his last track, Zepplin’s Stairway to Heaven. Holy Moly! I am so used to the flat and lifeless digital version that I had no idea of what the recording really sounded like.
Fremer and Stellar Phono designer, Darren Myers, worked well together to make this a seminal event. In the second picture down, we were also honored by the presence of Sheryl Wilson of Wilson Audio fame in the front row.
Here are a few more pictures from the event to enjoy.
Badass, Paul! Court and Spark is one of my all time favorites. I just got a 180g remastered version of it, and WOW. I’ll be happy to audition a pair of AN3s…
Apparently, everyone at RMAF was too busy to actually read the article.
“This trend continues in RIAA’s 2019 mid-year report, which came out on Thursday. Vinyl records earned $224.1 million (on 8.6 million units) in the first half of 2019, closing in on the $247.9 million (on 18.6 million units) generated by CD sales. Vinyl revenue grew by 12.8% in the second half of 2018 and 12.9% in the first six months of 2019, while the revenue from CDs barely budged. If these trends hold, records will soon be generating more money than compact discs.”
Not only have vinyl sales not exceeded those of CD, but on a unit basis (not $$$) CD sales more than doubled that of vinyl. In any case, those vinyl sales amounted to only 4% of all music sales, with streaming accounting for a dominant 80% of the take.
The report you site was for sales through June 2019. The Rolling Stone report updated to current figures. As far as being dollar, not unit sales, revenue trumps total units any day.
The quoted portion was from the Rolling Stone article. It used info from the RIAA report that was released Sept 5.
The industry may care more about dollars, that doesn’t mean we have to.
While I’m all for ‘revenue out trumps units sold’ let’s be clearer. NET revenue after costs out trumps gross revenue. In this case, anyone who has created good quality (or even poor quality) vinyl can tell you that the margins are much lower on vinyl… from the mastering to packaging to production to storage to shipping, everything is more expensive about vinyl and the margins. I wish the RIAA talked about ‘profit margins’.
What also is not discussed is where do the numbers come from? Having worked with record labels for more than 30 years, the RIAA generally gets their unit numbers from soundscan at major outlets (like Best Buy, etc, who stopped selling CDs in their stores and replaced them with vinyl — probably for purposes of selling more gear).
If you’ve looked for a broad selection of titles, Best Buy and Target are not the places to shop. Mostly sold are major label artists that are topping the charts. Those are the ‘units’ being sold that are counted.
What has never been accurately reported are the sales of indie labels and artists who have difficulty getting found in outlets where vinyl is sold in large quantities. It used to be 40% of sales were unaccounted because they didn’t go through soundscan. My guess is that 80% of the CDs sold are now through artist websites, gigs, etc and not accounted for in sales by the RIAA. Working with artists I know that CD sales are still a staple for them and revenue for their careers.
Lastly, the RIAA has a funny way of valuing “units”. After they pull the soundscan reports from major outlets, they put a “one price fits all” model to CDs or vinyl or a download or stream. Example… they fixed a digital download sale of an album to $9.99 and have no method of counting high resolution downloads which could cost upwards of $20-60 dollars. If the RIAA was going to declare 1500 streams equals 1 album download, then some of these high resolution downloads could be the equivalent of 2-6 albums.
Since the RIAA doesn’t value high resolution audio (or SACDs, Gold CDs or high quality pressings) they’ve managed to negate much of the value for high end labels in the audiophile world when the truth of it is that many high end labels do a better job of servicing the consumers who care. To the RIAA, we don’t exist.
Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy vinyl, CDs, downloads and streaming. I even enjoy youtube listening and especially enjoy tape! I’m glad to hear any news that sales of music are increasing. That said, I think we should all look at the source of the information and the reasons for spinning it… by that I mean the news outlets reporting.
Have a great Sunday, everyone
Cookie Marenco
Blue Coast Records
Thanks for setting the record correct, Cookie. Pun intended.
Would be interesting to know which pressing etc. of Court and Spark Mikey played.
When you read Mikey’s review on analogplanet, you’ll guess that he probably has played the Rhino re-issue which in his opinion is superior to the others, if a little bass shy.
https://www.analogplanet.com/content/court-and-spark-revisited-0
So I guess it depends on the bass voicing of the set up which he plays. I guess a PSA presentation is everything but bass shy, so it will have been the Rhino. I also have the out of print DCC reissue he mentioned, which sounds really great, too if you need a little more weight. To be honest, I think most of the listeners will actually prefer the DCC in their setup.
As usual with everything pre 90’s and with a standard digital mastering…forget it against most available vinyl masterings.
Fremer’s comment about light bass was referring to the original A&M release, not the Rhino version.
“The only criticism I have of the original is that it’s bass-light.”
You are right, I confused it!
Nevertheless the Rhino is brighter than the DCC which also came through between the lines by his following statement. If you hear the DCC, there is something for it…but as he said…in terms of hifi quality the Rhino is better. Nice to have both, even if a little nerdy.
„I think the new Rhino pressed at RTI is by far the best version of this album yet. If it sounds too bright for you, don’t blame the record.“
If you’re into bass, you might want to check out open reels. Better bass and more range.
That’s for another life 😉
Finished this with selling my rather consumer than studio like B77 long ago.
B77 wasn’t in the top league when it came to SQ among R2Rs (unless HS 2 track version, and even that was a league below TOTL Tandberg.
Btw. Studio decks are over-rated when it comes to SQ: so far only that impressed me was Nagra T-audio, and Telefunken M15s, and even then I still prefer TOTL Tandbergs.
I noticed Paul’s R2R was Otari, thoroughly average (or even slightly below average when it comes to SQ) when he implied his DSP was as good as R2Rs.
Yes the B77 definitely was not nearly in the league of what today’s R2R scene uses.
It would be very interesting to compare one of the R2R releases with its vinyl or SACD counterpart. I’m easily willing to believe it’s better.
R2R just is a too big money dump for me and too inconvenient. But when it plays it’s an even nicer watch than an LP spinning and quite sure gorgeous sound with early generation tape.
“It would be very interesting to compare one of the R2R releases with its vinyl or SACD counterpart. I’m easily willing to believe it’s better.”
Per TAS review, and other audiophile reviews of R2Rs all hot rodded TASCAM, and Technics (both in factory forms, inferior to TOTL Tandbergs in SQ), are far superior to even ultra expensive vinyl set ups.
For rock, even pre-recorded LS tape are easily still superior to expensive vinyl set ups.
I still use vinyl for recordings I really like but unable to find in pre-recorded tapes from the production tapes, not needle drops which I can do myself, for my own needle drops.
I agree RTRs are fussy, but then so are vinyls.
When I am too tired to mess with RTRs rituals, I use cassettes from my needle drops.
John777 – I was sitting on the floor next to the left speaker, where he had his stash. When he was putting it away I asked if it was some special release, as many others he spun were rare or one of a kind. He said, “No – just the original Atlantic release”. I have one somewhere around here, but I ordered a fresh one (hopefully) from an eBay dealer for $40. They range from about $4 to almost $200.
Edit – not sure if/when he played Court and Spark. I was thinking of when he played “Cold Blue Steel and Sweet Fire”. From “For the Roses” on Friday.
Those are some great pics, Paul. Man, do I wish I could’ve been there! Looks like it was such a great time. I’m super everyone was totally bowled over by the new AN3’s, being driven by BHK monoblocks, the Stellar Phono stage with a Lyra cart on a VPI 40th anniversary direct drive deck! Wow!
I’ve never let the vinyl thing go either, so I’m missing the days of all records either being free or a $1.00. Haha! I still play a CD every once in a while, but it’s very rare. I think it’s great that hopefully younger people will be pulled into the world of HiFi music playback via vinyl records. I don’t understand how after hearing a vinyl record played on a half decent system how anyone could go back to listening to MP3’s through earbuds. Yuck!
I was under the impression that vinyl had been outselling CD’s by quite a large margin for quite some time now. Hell, I picked up a copy of Nirvana’s “Nevermind” LP at Walmart a few month ago. That was certainly not on my shopping list of: Birdseed, charcoal, lighter fluid, and a reference copy of “Nevermind”.
Anyway, congrats to you, Paul, Terri, and the rest of the PS Audio crew. Im sure you guys are killing it at RMAF!
The last time vinyl outsold CD was in 1987.
Congrats Paul to you and the team, especially to Terri for the room design. It looks great! Just goes to show that quality will always shine through.
Looks like you’re on a winner with the Stellar Phono.
I haven’t read the article yet, but I doubt Rolling Stone took into account the used market of vinyl and CD sales, which is quite large with sites such as Discogs, eBay, and brick and mortar stores being part of the picture. I wonder how those numbers would add up against vinyl vs. CD sales both used and new.
Great choices, crowded house too 🙂
I see here Paul’s renewed appreciation of vinyl, hallelujah! Gone are the days of the Music Room turntable collecting dust sans cartridge.
Thanks for sharing Paul! It is really great that you let the extended high-fi family from around the world get a glimpse of PSAudio and the new AN3 at RMAF like this. It’s the next best thing to being there myself!
There’s stuff going on here, too. This coming weekend will bring the annual Helsinki Hifi Show and I will be sure to attend, as usual ;
All the best, Arto
“sales of vinyl have outstripped CDs for the first time in decades”
Incorrect. The USA data by value is:
LP/EP 4.3%
CD 7.1%
Download albums and singles 10.1%
Paid subscriptions 47.3%
The USA data by volume is:
LP/EP 7.1%
CD 9.8%
Download albums and singles 84.8%
In 2018 52m CDS were sold, compared to 939m in 1999.
In 2018 vinyl album sales were 16.7m compared to 344m in 1977, not counting 190m of single sales in 1977.
https://www.riaa.com/u-s-sales-database/
The reality is that physical formats are becoming an almost incidental component of sales by both volume and value, CDs are still higher but falling fast and the vinyl revival has been extremely modest.
“flat and lifeless digital”
Then I suggest PSA stop making DACs and a streamer (sometime). They are just cats and dogs – different.
The Led Zep IV remaster of Stairway to Heaven (I bought I and IV) includes superb 24/96 and CD versions.
Absolutely agree with you Steven…
… it’s understandable that Paul wants to push vinyl considering the new PS Audio phono preamplifier. I actually shuddered at his comment of “flat and lifeless digital” regarding Led Sep IV, can’t believe he’s not heard the remastered versions 🙁
I’m happy for those that want to pay a fortune for new vinyl LPs and the equipment to play them to get the best out of such a compromised medium. Unlike Paul I cannot listen through the surface noise, clicks, rumble, wow & flutter, reduced and falsely recreated frequency response… Or have the laws of physics changed?
What I’m not happy with is those with vested interest spreading false truths…
… just saying something doesn’t make it true. Taking dollar values over unit sales without qualifying the statistics is misleading and could cause actual harm to the recording industry. We should promote all truly paid for recording media and try to improve the sound, as I thought PS Audio strived to? Why have all the great improvements using DSD files, that even Paul says is better than vinyl, along with all the end to end systems gear if we’re dragged back to vinyl as other media is falsely trashed.
Just spreading misinformation (fake news), even if unwittingly, can cause the good to fail, products as well as people ;-(
“Absolutely agree with you Steven…
… it’s understandable that Paul wants to push vinyl considering the new PS Audio phono preamplifier. I actually shuddered at his comment of “flat and lifeless digital” regarding Led Sep IV, can’t believe he’s not heard the remastered versions”
I think Paul meant, in general.
“I’m happy for those that want to pay a fortune for new vinyl LPs and the equipment to play them to get the best out of such a compromised medium.”
One doesn’t have to spend a fortune: I am a dedicated hardcore budget audiophile. If one does homework, one can find a (really good vintage or not )vinyl set up without spending a fortune.
“Unlike Paul I cannot listen through the surface noise, clicks, rumble, wow & flutter, reduced and falsely recreated frequency response… Or have the laws of physics changed?”
Well depending on mastering, have you ever tried MFSL? It was a revelation compared to standard mastering.
I agree in general: why I always have thought vinyl was over-rated. Go for open reels, or high quality vintage cassette decks for a needle drop.
‘Yesterday we learned that sales of vinyl have outstripped CDs for the first time in decades.’
As pointed out yesterday by ‘jonicont’ this would appear to be a somewhat misleading statement.
According to NME.com, who got their figures from the Recording Industry Association of America, vinyl is set to outsell CD’s for the first time since 1986. The figures for the first half of 2019 are as follows. Vinyl earned $224.1 million from 8.6 million units and CD earned $247.9 million from 18.6 million units. So although revenue from vinyl almost equalled that of CD, CD’s still outsold vinyl by over two to one.
So, it’s not quite there yet, but retailers will always chase the money and no doubt wish it to be true.
The 3rd pic down sums up just how odd the audiophile community is. The “Seminal event” is a room full of 50+ers listening to Stairway to Heaven and:
1) Everyone has their eyes closed
2) No one is smiling
3) No one dares make a sound or it will ruin the experience for everyone
Afterwards, all they are thinking is “How do I get a copy of that album?” so I can go home and play it over and over again a hundred times a month.
Oh man.
“Everyone has their eyes closed”. Maybe they are concentrating on the music. When I listen critically, I always close my eyes.
“No one is smiling.” Take a closer look, a least one person is smiling. Check out the gentleman in the third row.
“No one dares make a sound or it will ruin the experience of everyone.” There’s nothing worse than people talking during a demonstration at a show. Very rude in my opinion.
“Full of 50+ers listening to Stairway to Heaven.” Perhaps the Millennials are listening to the newest pop music on their iPods at BB?
Exactly my point. We see people listening to lossy music through headphones…… yet dancing, singing along with it to an “air microphone” as weird and immature.
“Afterwards, all they are thinking is “How do I get a copy of that album?” so I can go home and play it over and over again a hundred times a month.”
If they’re true audiophiles, they would go for a needle drop with either TOTL open reels, or custom modified open reels, or at least TOTL vintage cassette decks, saving the wear on the vinyl.
Reed – sorry, it was nothing like that. People were involuntarily moving in their seats, but not wanting to bug others, did not get up and dance or make noise. There were people getting into it, younger people turned on to vinyl, more women than I’ve ever seen at a show, families with babies in strollers, toddlers, etc.
This particular hour was for Mikey to spin whatever he wanted, and demo how different different pressings or masterings can be. It was for vinyl enthusiasts. Before and after that you might have been listening to The Books “The Lemon of Pink” or Daft Punk or any of a huge range of great music on either vinyl or digital. You should attend if you want to diss.
Although I’m sure, this will be carefully avoided, I wonder if not at least Darren made a few comparisons in the evenings or off the records during his SPP development 😉
Maybe it needs a PM to find out if someone compared e.g. some of the best sounding analog Acousticsounds remasterings equally done for vinyl, (played over his phono stage) and SACD by Kevin Gray.
I guess the standard isolated VPI put on top of the high rack between the speakers might struggle a bit in bass and imaging compared to digital in this setup, but the rest? 😉
I know, I know it’s incomparable, no one wants it blabla, but I’m sure someone does 😉
I am glad to see that not everyone reads this post without using the brain.
More vinyl sold than cd’s ? No, the other way around (in numbers).
A lot of vinyl nowadays is insanely priced, under the motto : those crazy audiophiles will pay almost everything for their beloved vinyl. I see it on audio shows. 50 -100 dollar for one “audiophile” lp., no problem, hardcore fans buy it.
That of course increases turnover. Tells me not a lot about the numbers.
But it’s still a niche. Nothing more.
And what about the renewed interest of PSA for vinyl…?
If you are not a vinyl lover, (like I am for the last 35 years or so), than you are not converted overnight, unless “of course” you wanna advertise a new phono pre and have no cd transport available at the moment. (IMO strange PSA policy, though; if I need a new one for my PWT right now, I have to look elsewhere, so PSA loses me as a client).
But hey, as far as the new phono pre is concerned, nothing wrong with a little bit of entrepreneurial spirit.
And I wish PSA a lot of succes with the show and hope new customers have a chance to get to know the brand.
Physical media in general is becoming a niche.
Absolutely true.
They become extinct, just like the good old dinosaur.
What about music on a server harddisk/ssd.
Is that still physical or “semi physical” ?
Maybe in the not so far away future the ONLY way to listen to music is to stream from the cloud, as we already do now when we use Tidal and co.
In the late 1990’s people would walk into my living room and were amazed to find a record shelf (3/4″ oak – well braced) with hundreds of records and a Thoren’s 316 sitting ontop. that was a middling turntable of it’s day but it served me well. Just before replacing it with the Music Hall MMF-7 the Qup tonearm lifter died, I tried repairing it but there was just too much wear.
I kept the records because i couldn’t see the sense in replacing music I already owned with Cd’s. I still have records I bought in the mid 60’s and most of them are in very good shape.
The Q-up is a great device that lifts up the tonearm at the end of the record, its very hand especially as you get older – they are grosly over priced at $59 but there is nothing else out there anywhere near that price. The other day I got an email from Audio Adviser selling open box equipment, in that listing were some Q-ups for $29 (half off) so pushed the button and should have it in a few days .
So life goes on with my records, CD’s and file based music.
Do you expect Fremer to say anything positive towards CDs? I sold my $14k tt setup (not including phono preamp) 2 weeks ago. TTs can sound very good but with many obstacles: very little new vinyl for the music I like, compressed sound but very enjoyable, noisy, and to get good vinyl sound, better have a tt setup that cost many times the cost of doing digital right. If you total up the cost of Paul’s vinyl setup at the show, it’s many times more expensive than the cost of their DS dac, and since I have their DS dac at home, I’ll bet that the DS setup would sound better majority of the time if you played 100 vinyl albums and their equivalent digital versions and the DS would sound better all of the time if using a newer hires, MQA ,or remastered version.
rs350z, if you run for president you’ll have my vote.
It is so sad that so many of the post here are focused on the RS article and the usual format war between digital and analog. Obviously, there is good and bad about both. I think it is wonderful that PS Audio put together such a fine room and event with Mikey Fremer hosting a discussion on vinyl and David Wilson’s widow in attendance. I am sure the with the VPI HW-40 and Lyra cartridge being played through TOTL PS Audio gear into the new AN3 speakers that the music sounded great. Good show and hats off to the entire PS Audio team.
It is so sad that you didn’t read the title of the post.
Pendantry:
“Micahel” Fremer?
And wouldn’t that be “Sheryl” Wilson?
(..I know, busy times…)
I’ve spent the better part of my life analyzing data for investment purposes, and I’ve always been amazed at how the most significant piece of information somehow gets overlooked. If I still had investments in the audio business, what I would want to know is how many people are buying lp’s, and, more importantly, who are these people? My guess is that, for the most part, the vinyl market is dominated by the very same people who bought records 30 years ago. There are strong parallels here with other nostalgia-based hobbies. If that’s the case, then vinyl sales will first flatten and then dramatically decline within a few years. I’m not saying that vinyl doesn’t have it’s charms. I just believe that technological trends and demographics will determine the outlook for sales.
Don’t guess. Go to a record store and find out. I’ll tell you for free they are full of young people, my 22 year old son has a substantial and growing collection. It is not an audiophile thing – his system is second hand and cost about $1,200.
I have a home in a college town with a stadium that attracts major touring artists. Your son can find some great used vinyl buys here. I suppose things are different in the UK.
I wonder if the nostalgia thing will revive cd player sales at some point as it has done with vinyl.
99% of all sound systems sales are probably for MP3 players with earbuds and HT systems all with download capabilities. So what does that prove? RBCD remain the gold standard of the 2 channel audio format. It meets every criteria you could hope for in a 2 channel music storage and retrieval system. The inherent superiority of RBCD over all other formats is still uncontested. It’s not an opinion, it’s a fact. Cheap, portable, durable, able to give excellent results even on inexpensive equipment right out of the box, zero setup, no maintenance, it’s the end of the rainbow for this function. By comparison vinyl phonograph records are a technological anachronism. So are vacuum tubes. One good thing about vinyl phonograph records is that if you don’t like the sound of ones you bought they make very good cake plates when you want to give a cake to someone as a gift.
More pedantry :
– “Pendantry” ….wouldn’t that be “pedantry” (in this context) ?
– “Zepplin’s”….wouldn’t that be “Zeppelin’s” ?
Indeed, busy times.
And I have to admit I make typo’s all the tyme, efen when I’m nod buzy.
More pedantry:
“Nod” and “tyme” are poor examples of typos as neither d&t nor i&y are next to each other on the keyboard.
Using four typos in a single short sentence is a blunt, heavy handed approach. No more than too should have been used.
“…No more than too should have been used…”
“too” ? LOL.
Butt of course.
Mikey did some of these “flash DJ” sessions at AXPONA. I attended one, and his choices always sounded excellent, even if I didn’t always care for the music. I unfortunately couldn’t do RMAF this year, but hopefully he’ll reprise it at AXPONA next year so I can hear them over the next (and maybe production?) version of the AN3.
I haven’t abandoned vinyl–never did. There are still many recordings that have never been reissued digitally, and some of the remastered all-analog pressings sound better than the originals. (There are plenty that sound terrible on CD due to poor mastering, so I’ll lean towards a better-sounding mastering on vinyl if that’s what it takes.) It is also easy to find sealed pressings on Discogs, and I’ve had great luck with those. Used records, not so much. I’m finding in this decade that I’m rejecting about 60% of the used records I purchased, mainly due to wear (groove burn). Back in the 90s and 00s when I bought a lot of it, it was rare I’d toss out a record.
For vinyl vs. CD sales, one should also take into account the used record market. Let me say this–some stores near me won’t even buy back used CDs anymore, since they just don’t sell. Inventory sits unsold, taking up space. Even a brand new store by me, around for only a year or two, now has boxes of CDs (and DVDs) out front on clearance since they’re not selling in the store. Hell, you can buy a crate of 1000 CDs in bulk on eBay for pennies on the dollar. There is an auction right now, $179 for 1,000 CDs, buy-it-now pricing. Interesting times we live in.
“I haven’t abandoned vinyl–never did. There are still many recordings that have never been reissued digitally, and some of the remastered all-analog pressings sound better than the originals. (There are plenty that sound terrible on CD due to poor mastering, so I’ll lean towards a better-sounding mastering on vinyl if that’s what it takes.) ”
Indeed, why I am still buying vinyl.
“It is also easy to find sealed pressings on Discogs, and I’ve had great luck with those. Used records, not so much. I’m finding in this decade that I’m rejecting about 60% of the used records I purchased, mainly due to wear (groove burn). Back in the 90s and 00s when I bought a lot of it, it was rare I’d toss out a record.”
Time to invest in open reel or cassette deck for a needle drop.
“For vinyl vs. CD sales, one should also take into account the used record market. Let me say this–some stores near me won’t even buy back used CDs anymore, since they just don’t sell. Inventory sits unsold, taking up space. Even a brand new store by me, around for only a year or two, now has boxes of CDs (and DVDs) out front on clearance since they’re not selling in the store. Hell, you can buy a crate of 1000 CDs in bulk on eBay for pennies on the dollar. There is an auction right now, $179 for 1,000 CDs, buy-it-now pricing. Interesting times we live in.”
Now, it gets me to shop for used TOTL CD or DVD deck.
Some recordings I really like have not been released on vinyl, only on cd.
I love the reemergence of vinyl as I kept my 3 turntables when everyone was doing digital, which I did as well. One of my tables I just gave to my middle son.
The issue is not how vinyl sounds or can sound it is purely what it costs compared to the cost of playing digital. You cannot achieve sonic bliss with a $400 table/cartridge and a $100 phono preamp. Your set up and preamp is not cheap, but a great value to the vinyl lover not on a budget. I would put a $1K CD player ( which many can play SACD’s) up against any $1K TT set up all day long. Given the right digital material. both formats sound great, but the road to making a great LP is much harder and all comes down to who cuts the disc and who presses it. Not all discs, LP or CD, are created equal.
At home I can record and play back 2496 and 24192 files made from my affordable Tascam DR-40’s or my DR-680MK2 and they sound as good as anything I’ve heard, even high end tables costing thousands more. Those files provide the smoothness often missing in redbook quality CDs and that vinyl can offer. Here at home I can achieve a -80db noise floor. It also gives me an easy way to archive vinyl through my system at any resolution I want for computer playback, or to transfer them to CD’rs or DVD-Rs at 24/96. .
I have many lps here that don’t sound that great, but were bought when it was the main format for audiophiles. Now great vinyl will cost from $20-$50 or more, so it is not an inexpensive hobby. To me to really approach what vinyl can offer one must spend between $1500 and $2k to start to hear how good vinyl can sound, that would include a table for $1K, and a cartridge for $400 and a phono stage for $600. A $1K CD/SACD player would have no trouble keeping up with that.
I am happy for the resurgence, but I am also a realist as to what great sound costs to reproduce at home. It is not easy making great CDs or LPs .
I can see the appeal for vinyl for those wanting older recordings that were either never remastered on CD or SACD or were remastered poorly, and there are plenty of those. Otherwise , for well recorded CD’s and especially SACD’s, IMO, there’s no comparison. SACD always seems to be left out in these discussions, probably because it’s mostly classical based music.
Physical formats will be around for a very long time as streaming gradually replaces it.
May not mean much, but Paul’s comment, “I am so used to the flat and lifeless digital version that I had no idea of what the recording really sounded like” may be more attributable to his dialed in AN3’s, new room acoustics, a very high-end Vinyl recording\play back set up and high expectations of the show, rather than the pre-experienced digital version. IMHO, get both high end sources (digital-analog) side by side in the same setting-same place, and then judge fairly what the “differences” may be! Of course, I’ve been wrong before!! 😉
BTW, the RMAF AN3 Setup, presentation and no doubt, “The Sound” looks to be Superb…Great Show PSA!!!
Flat and lifeless digital has to do with mastering, once too many hands get in the soup all bets are off. I have many lps here that sound the same way as bad CDs. It is not the format that makes it bad.
“Flat and lifeless digital has to do with mastering, ……….. ”
Sometimes, but not always, it’s inherent in digital (unless ultra high end)
“… once too many hands get in the soup all bets are off. I have many lps here that sound the same way as bad CDs.”
It is true some LPs are bad due to bad mastering and/or bad manufacturing, but they still sound different bad from bad CDs.
“It is not the format that makes it bad.”
All formats have their idiosyncrasies.
Analog rules.
SQ wise, yes, mostly, except the low end analogs, and all 8 tracks.
Paul,
“I don’t believe anyone in the room had heard such glorious music. All were transfixed with the vinyl he played. I had chills running down my spine listening to his last track, Zepplin’s Stairway to Heaven. Holy Moly! “….. Sounds like you are becoming a vinyl convert.
Back when I had my $40,000 system my analog front end: turntable, tone arm, cartridge, phono stage(amp), record cleaning machine, stand, cables, and all the gadgets it came out to $15,000. I spent $3,000 on my digital front end. Why? Because records sound better than CD’s. And done correctly, they always will. I know digital audio is leaps and bounds better than it used to be and playing LP’s is labor intensive. But when done right with well pressed records, there is nothing like the fidelity of analog based audio. I had a $30,000 record collection as well. I have been an audiophile since the mid 70’s and I have learned to let my hearing be the final judge. I would not have spent that much money if digital sounded better. For those of you who have never listened a high end analog system, I urge you to do so. Until then it’s impossible for you enter into this debate.
$40K to make lps sound better? Anyone can enter this debate as it is not about money who has an opinion. Benchmark and DCS can certainly make digital sound as good as it can, and even affordable Ifi had done it with their a DSD USB products. There are bad lps and cds and I have some bad SACDs from poor mastering.
People have the right to listen to music in any format they want, including MP3s, that doesn’t bother me, but to say that an lp MUST sound better than say, SACD, is just not true, especially if you must spend $40K to prove it.
I have a high-end vinyl system, Koetsu Urushi pickup, vibration isolated and a Loricraft record cleaner. Quite an investment. The signal is converted A/D and is processed by a digital phono amplifier. I can record the digital stream and stream my “vinyl” and it sounds just the same whether spun or streamed.
The basic reason why digital tends to sound better for some music is the lower noise floor enables greater dynamic range. This is particularly the case with classical music, which dropped vinyl like a hot potato for CDs and there has been no vinyl revival. I have 1,000 classical vinyl LPs and I cannot give them away (I’ve tried).
The figures you mention simply illustrate that it costs a fortune to get really good results from vinyl, but you can get a pretty fabulous DAC for $1,000.
I prefer open reel, or even TOTL cassette decks to any vinyl. I use vinyl strictly for needle drop only for releases not available in open reels. I use CDs for laser drop for releases not available in open reels and vinyl.
I agree, analog has a 3 dimensional body to instruments and a blooming of those individual instruments with real air around the instruments that digital doesn’t capture. Also aside from digital having more dynamic range the transient response that gives a lively tone to the music also is not captured the same way as analog. Detail, transparency, musicality is all better on good analog systems. You have to find good pressings though. Most of today’s cut records are made to sound digital or even worse.
Serious competition for Wilson – they still rely on 1″ dome tweeters, which can’t play real music.
Thanks for the advice, I’ll throw out my Harbeth and tell them to stop making their 4 models (of 6 in total) with 1″ dome tweeters that have sold by the tens of thousands for 40 years.
p.s. Listening to Joni Mitchell singing on “Gershwin’s World”, a 24/192 stream via dome tweeters (and I have a vinyl copy). Must be unbearably bad.
Villchur’s original 1″ dome tweeters where quite polite, as were typical recordings of the day made from 15 meters into the audience. Nowadays there is a forest of microphones amongst the orchestra or pop band and a phalanx of compressors on the tracking, mixing and mastering. If not, the 1″ domes offer soft knee compression/limiting and slewing limits from some tens of microHenrys.
I more or less stopped listening to commercial releases because I hear the compression whether it is electronic, acoustic or electro-acoustic (XMax). I sit between the second and seventh row for a hundred concerts a year without going through PA system compression, and listen to uncompressed, up close acoustic recordings direct from 30KHz microphones to DSD using Heil tweeters with four to forty times the surface area, longer travel and less than 1/4 the inductance of the best dome tweeters.
My ultra-fast peak reading meters confirm Meyer Sound’s measurements that on-stage sound has 18dB peaks in the top octave, where the midrange is of no help whatsoever.
My first decent pair of speakers was similar to mid sized Harbeths, B&W DM5. They were good for major label releases, but after I discovered Scheffield and Chesky I needed an upgrade.
And not a 20-something or millennial in site!
A valid AARP Card was required to enter. Darren got in, cuz, well, he’s Darren.
My favorite photo above shows new friends I know because of this site: Larry, who drove in from Kansas, Danm, Jeff of Arabica, and Calord. That is really one of the coolest things about going to the show : )
+1 A great day out all around!
Sorry I’m late to this thread but I’m confused. Are the pictures above from Rocky Mountain or a clubhouse gathering at a 55+ (65+, 75+) community? Very sad, the past, present and future of our hobby.
Russ