Active battles passive
Join Our Community Subscribe to Paul's PostsThere’s always strong debate when it comes to AC power. One camp believes a passive collection of coils, caps (and sometimes) exotic materials does a better job with delivering AC power than an active regenerator.
I think this battle may be misplaced. A passive solution is not trying to accomplish the same things as an active device because the passive device can never hope to do what a regenerator is capable of. Thus, each should be evaluated on its own merit.
For example, a passive conditioner cannot fix AC power problems like impedance, voltage fluctuations, distortion of the waveform, etc. What it can do, is remove noise and deliver a much cleaner source of power to our equipment.
So, the argument should not be whether a non-regenerator is better than a regenerator at specific tasks, but rather, what’s the greatest benefit to connected equipment?
Some will argue that clean power is all you need. Others, like me, suggest that while clean power is beneficial to sound quality, it pales in what regeneration provides that conditioners can’t.
When you think about AC power—that all critical source of energy our systems rely upon—it’s probably helpful to narrow your search down to evaluating the benefits or lack thereof of specific tasks rather than comparing models with the same function.
Do you want an active system that replaces missing energy, lowers impedance, distortion and noise, and stiffens the power to your equipment? Or do you feel better forgoing all those benefits—except noise reduction—in favor of a passive approach?
Those are the questions one needs to ask.
My experience of using both a regenerator and conditioners is what benefits the components in your systems. If your system is indifferent to impedance or voltage fluctuations, then you would be wasting money buying a component that solves a problem that doesn’t exist – in your system. This may be worth a read.
https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/identifying-solving-mains-supply-problems
https://www.hificritic.com/duncan.html
Steven,
After reading Paul’s post I had the same question, how do you avoid “wasting money buying a component that solves a problem that doesn’t exist – in your system?”
While the link you provided was enlightening, it didn’t answer my question on how to diagnose if you have a power issue. Other than attempting all the fixes mentioned and then listening for improvement in audio quality.
The same goes with the active or passive solutions in Paul’s post.
Short of buying a conditioner or power regenerator, and listening to your equipment for a difference, I am not sure there is currently an alternative.
I wonder if there is an inexpensive product available to plug into your home’s power outlets that would provide a quantitative measurement of it’s quality? That would really help guide what corrective actions to take.
Steven,
I would be interested to know more about your experience with regenerators and conditioners. Which did you find worked best? Did you end up using either?
Aeroaudio,
I think your assessment is right, you’ve just got to try it, but maybe my experience will help.
I was looking at the next step to improve my system and decided on mains power. After reading a little online my logic told me it was better to regenerate than (re) condition, as per Paul’s suggestion, if I was going to try anything. However the prices of products from the specialist hifi companies discouraged me from taking a chance. I’m in the U.K. so looked round for alternatives. Fortunately, after some internet digging, I found a much cheaper, recently announced regenerator that did tempt me to take a chance. I assessed the cost in terms of the overall system cost, good value, and also worth mentioning, it was less than the cost of many conditioners. I think it’s only suitable for U.K. voltage though.
When I connected it up I was immediately impressed with the overall improvement in sound. Difficult to be more specific now apart from the classic ‘lifting a veil’ but that was how I felt. I would say this has been my most cost effective upgrade and, from my experience, would have no hesitation in recommending.
Thank you for your help Richtea.
If I go under the premise that I need to ‘clean’ my mains, Then there must be some specific measurements that can be made on the input power. If so what measurements are recommended?
From my days of punching holes through the ocean, I learned and experienced the benefits of clean AC power generated from batteries… Static Inverters…
I am in my third version of a PS Audio regenerator. I bought one years ago when I discovered that the quality of my system was related to the work load on my local grid. I was able to predict it. Late in the evening on Sundays was predictably the best. 98 degree July afternoons again, predictably the worse. I now have the “Late in the evening on Sundays ” all the time.
The industry standard for mission critical equipment is and has been for a long time the on line double static conversion UPS. It consists of three main parts, a rectifier to convert AC to DC, an inverter to convert DC back to AC, and batteries to operate off of when there is a power outage or sag. Because output power is controlled by the UPS itself, its quality meets whatever standards the designer specifies. It is immune to all 9 types of electrical power anomalies as long as the batteries hold out. Generally a backup generator fires up to replace utility power operating the UPS and recharging the batteries during an outage. Typical battery sizing is from 8 to 15 minutes at full load, actually operation time on batteries during an outage is about 12 or 13 seconds. It is called on line because the power always passes through it. In an industrial type, static and maintenance bypass switches are usually provided in case there is a problem with the UPS or it has to be taken out of service for maintenance or repair.
A regenerator would be a double static conversion UPS if it had batteries. But unlike those in industry, it generates its output from a sine wave generator and a class AB? audio amplifier. I think harmonic distortion of the output waveform is about 0.5 percent. Industrial UPSs of this type use digital switching output circuits. They are far more efficient and can be built to deliver very high power levels, close to a million watts each and they can be wired in parallel. However, due to switching output circuits harmonic distortion may be no better than 5 percent, about ten times higher than a regenerator. I have never experienced a problem with this and although usually used in data centers to power data processing equipment I’ve used them for electron microscopes, mass spectrometers, and other high end scientific equipment.
The type you’d buy for a home PC is called a line interactive type. It works differently and I wouldn’t recommend it. It can have up to 40% harmonic distortion. Fine for PCs, not good for a high end audio system.
So if you have an electrical power quality problem a regenerator is a sure fix for it. Just be sure to buy one large enough for your connected load or divide the load among multiple regenerators. The ONLY passive device I’d recommend is an MOV which protects equipment from damage due to overvoltages. They run in price from about $5 or $10 in a power strip to $10,000 for an electrical substation. I bought two of them at Home Depot, Intermatic for $27 each (I have two main panels.) It took me about 5 minutes to install each one. If you do not have skill working on your home electrical system I recommend hiring an electrician to do it for you. You’ll need a 2 pole 15 amp circuit breaker too.
Not trying to pass any poor comment on power regeneration, the PS Audio kit seems amazing but UK models are significantly more expensive than for my America cousins – more than the dollar cost, plus we apparently tend to earn half that for similar jobs in the USA. I do use very good quality Kimber mains cables, fuses and high quality passively silenced sockets (passive differential and common mode inductorless non-resonant harmonic filter) internally wired, rather than busbars, along with spike/voltage clamps.
Forgive me, but I’ve been told that we in the UK benefit from 240v/50Hz that’s also more stable than USA power supplies to homes. Knowing a few folk that live in the USA, from Portland to California and across to Chicago and New York, there appears to be some truth to this. The UK doesn’t suffer from brownouts or significant fluctuations in frequency, apparently because of the national grid approach and the physical properties of using a higher voltage? The power is cut rather than compromising the grid or delivery quality. Our standards are better, in terms of power distribution, from highly regulated national grid to substations and into homes, plus wiring within homes including better connecting sockets and plugs. We are a much smaller landmass country, hence able to use a, so far, high quality infrastructure that’s not needed to grow anything like that in the USA.
Anyone care to comment?
I hada regenerator and it told me that my UK voltage was always ±1v at most. I think the answer on these things is to get loan equipment to see if there is an improvement and then make a decision.
A P12 is £5,250 in the UK, £4,375 net of VAT, about $5,650 at the current rate. The USA price is $5,000, In the UK the distributor and retailer are taking a cut from the $5,650, but in the USA where PS Audio are now selling direct they are getting the whole $5,000. PS Audio are funding a trial and free return policy in the USA, button the UK you have a 14-day return by law under consumer legislation. So it is quite a bit more complicated.
Alan,
I’d agree with your assessment of the U.K. power supply network but was nonetheless pleasantly surprised by the significant improvements brought about by my regenerator, as per my post above at 11.21
Paul several weeks ago you told us about the significant improvement Audioquest Dragon power cords, I believe, made in the sound
in your listening room. When I told this to a friend of mine he responded then this suggests that the PS Audio power
regenerators are not able to do all that they should. Your response, please.
Herb
Don’t you still have to connect from regenerator to each component’s power supply, i.e., through a cable and fuse?
Yes, but it depends on the regenerator. Mine uses IEC connectors on the output so cable yes, but no fuse. If your components are some distance apart it can mean some long mains leads, or two regenerators.
Not quite picking up on your reply. Responding to Herbert’s question, I was referring to what the components’ power supplies see, which beyond the regenerator, depends on the power cords and the fuses used, if any, in the path.
Now I’m not quite picking up! All I’m saying is the output voltage from my regenerator to each component is via IEC plugs, not the usual mains plugs. In the U.K. this would be 3 pin, 13amp. So with the IEC you can use a mains cable of your choice but no fuse required. Is the question why do you need a quality mains cable if the regenerated power is so good. Do they still further improve the sound?
Well, I know they change the sound. Any cord or fuse (U.S.) comparison tells me that. Improve? Good question. But I’m not even sure what that means, practically speaking, since I imagine you’d need to isolate and identify the sound effect of the regenerator output, and then compare it with that of various power cords.
Thx Richard for your comparison of conditioners to the regenerator. I run two PS regenerators the P5 on my on six seperates and the P10 powering two subs, M700 amps, BHK 250 amp. It’s a no brainier for me as i am very rural at the end of the line. The weather alone will cause the voltage to fluctuate. I just recently put 7.5 awg power cords on them to all seperates and noticed a substantial improvement comparible to installing a firmware update like Windom. I can’t imagine what i would hear if i was able to install the Dragon cables. Obviously power cables just provide a degree of how well power is conducted with a regenerator or without one.
My experience with power conditioners is that I have tried a few, and found that while they did make an improvement as often as not, those improvements were not (in my personal assessment) justified by the price, and I never considered investing in one. But as to power regenerators, I tried out a PS Audio P10 somewhat reluctantly one day (about three years ago), and the impact ended up being so overwhelming that I would never consider going without it. And, I must add, in terms of cost it did handily exceed that of any of the high-end conditioners I rejected.
For what it’s worth: my son-in-law is a chief engineer in a large building in Manhattan, and he told me, just the other day, that all the power to the entire building has to be “regenerated”, as the power from the Con-Edison utility company is unreliable and unusable.
I do both. With great results!
Late to the party, but I also do both — regenerators for front end components, passive conditioners for power amps (simple balanced iso transformers.
The Power amp power supplies are quite robust, noise reduction is all they really need. The front end stuff seems to benefit greatly from regeneration — even the digital in/out stuff.
Today I experimented with using an IFi power unit on my USB hub (isolates and feeds the DS). The Ifi is fed by a PP3 — glorious!
Let me take advantage of your experience fellow readers. Does the regenerator have the same benefit the the conditioner has at the same time it deals with current?
Not sure what advantage you’re referring to. A regenerator like we make in the Power Plant can deliver significantly more peak current than any power conditioner.
Not sure if that answers your question or not.