Capturing a vibe
Join Our Community Subscribe to Paul's PostsBuilding a recording studio like we are with Octave Records is a very different discipline than PS Audio’s core mission of producing the equipment that reproduces those recordings.
With reproduction, we want to perfectly capture every nuance in the recording. With the recordings themselves, it’s more about capturing a vibe than maintaining purity.
My friend Mike Kirkham, who runs Magenta Audio in Australia and is himself an avid recordist, sparked this riff when he wrote:
“Unlike the audiophile perspective, youre not looking to maintain the integrity of the incoming signal – indeed you’re creating vibe.”
This is so correct and there’s a couple of interesting reasons why. First, microphones and their preamps are so colored as to be placed in categories by recording engineers in the same way we audiophiles might place speakers: natural, boomy, articulate, bright, etc. Even the highly regarded B and K measurement microphones have a “sound” to them that producers like or do not like.
It all comes down to capturing a vibe. If we’re recording a funky band then the microphones used should enhance or at least be synergistic with that sound. But, if we were lucky enough to get Yo Yo Ma and his cello in the room we’d want to honor that vibe instead.
In high-end audio, we want to honor and preserve what’s been captured by the recording engineer. Any attempt at enhancement or manipulation in one direction or another is verboten.
In the recording arts, we use whatever tools are available to capture a far more ethereal goal: the vibe itself.
I can only imagine the angst this notion of capturing emotions must engender in our friends that believe everything can be measured.
Maybe someday we’ll see a vibe meter.
Wouldn’t it be interesting to know which equipment the recording engineer used to monitor his choice of microphones/vibe?
…as this (and no otherwise neutral or colored gear) can be the only one faithfully replicating his intent (as long as his choice was not so radical that its effects are much more audible than playback gear differences)…
Indeed. That was my first thought when asking mysel: “How can a microphone sound?” Is the basis of this finding that there is a neutral mic amp and a neutral reproduction chain? Or is there a reference mic defined as “neural” sounding? Or are these findings about the sound of a mic derived from measurements revealing some irregularities in the frequency curve or step response? And what about the calibration curves for each microphone (or pressure/velocity transducer)? Shouldn’t they guarantee a “neutral” behavior? Again Paul creates many questions while his basic statement about the different goals of mixing engineers and audiophiles is correct.
There is no reference microphone I am aware of and even if there were how would anyone quantify it? We cannot know for certain a transducer does its job perfectly because we have never figured out all the parameters of sound to measure.
We might get quite a few close but not perfect.
There are other ways to measure a vibrating object. One is optical using a laser. It can be extremely accurate. Comparing a laser to a microphone will give you a reference to calibrate the microphone and devise digital equalization to give it a flat response.
SM,
Yes, but EQ also tries to EQ up the poor mechanical responses of a Mic so we have a flat response per say, but one that is still a mess.
Just because a device creates a sound or voltage from an input doesn’t mean EQ fixes anything but amplitude, along with all the inaccuracies it contains.
I’m far removed from accepting EQ as accurate as it doesn’t address, and can’t address, physical non linearities from the mechanical source. Better than nothing, true, but the accuracy of a laser recording poor mechanical performance is still poor outside of a devices passband.
People incorrectly think recording is science. It is indeed art.
Interesting post today. It seems the whole high end audio world may be thrown on its head. Soundstage, tonal characteristics, smoothness, prat and etc… all euphemisms for vibe. What about accurate recording and reproduction of vibes? (Will they have the correct vibe?)
How do we know we have accurately reproduced what a recording engineer has laid out for us? All we have is our ears, a bunch of equipment, and no shortage of opinions on what captures and reproduces sounds with the correct vibe for any given session.
So until I can find accurate descriptions of any given recording sessions, including soundstage information, then find those recordings in the format I prefer, and finally enjoy the ‘vibe’ – I’m going to meet every equipment recommendation and description with a high degree of skepticism.
Recording engineers certainly do have a big role in producing the sound and balance they want for artist, and it is no more evident from the vast range of sound you get from recordings of solo piano.
In the same way, cameras enhance images by their jpeg processing. This is particularly the case with phone cameras. A few years ago if you were serious about it you had to edit images before posting them to social media, now the jpeg processing is specifically designed for social media (i.e. loads of sharpening, over-saturation and shadow removal). The images are nothing like the raw data captured by the camera. They may not be natural, but they are far more pleasing to the eye. Just as much manipulation used to be done in the darkroom with film.
The other thing in common with cameras and audio is the desire for more dynamic range. However, for practical purposes, recording engineers and camera processors compress dynamic range. They both have to take account of how the media is going be played back.
None of this has anything to do with the contention that whatever comes out of the studio, the playback system should try and be faithful to it, rather than re-shape it.
You want a Vibe Meter? Look around you. They’re the creatures with the fleshy flaps on the sides of their heads ; )
Back at the CAS meeting in January, Gus was playing Joni Mitchell covering herself (Both Sides Now from the jazz/concept album Both Sides Now) and tears came to my eyes. I turned to look at him, shaking my head. He smiled and said, “It’s not how it Sounds – it’s how it Feels”.
The trick is listening from below the neck. I believe this is a skill that good audio engineers develop – both designers like Darren and engineers like Gus. One of the things you do in between technical evaluations of various aspects is to “step back” and listen with your cognitive functions temporarily at bay. Sort of a different form of objectivity.
acuvox claims he can hear through his eyeballs. I wonder if eyeglasses impairs his hearing? What about sunglasses?
You do want to take your shades off, as it messes with the HRTF, at the least.
The vagus nerve is directly wired from your ears to the rest of your body. Unless you are one of those heads in a jar like on Futurama (which sometimes I suspect may be the case) you indeed “hear” from below the neck. (See Cheap Bob’s PFunk post below)
Resonances in your skull are no small part of what you hear as well, so, yeah – eyeballs count.
It’s very unscientific – and yet at the same time quintessentially scientific – to treat our heads as separate from this….(looks down, raises arms and shrugs)….thing carrying our brains around : )
Why am I not surprised? I always thought he had multi functional orifices. The skill/judgement is to use the right one at the right time.
An hour with Gus is something few people ever get to experience but it is indeed magical.
Can he make money disappear? 🙂
Admittedly one must say that “both sides now” is such a great song, it generates goose bumps even from a kitchen radio 😉 But this shouldn’t attract from his achievements.
True – but hearing the master on his system is just such a visceral experience. It sounds very good off Qobuz on my system, but unsurprisingly, doesn’t approach that level. It informs a lot of what I’m looking for audio-wise. Though it has less to do with technical matters than we might think. Otherwise, all you’d have to do is put up X mic and record on X format, and hey, presto! It is the other side of the coin of technically well-recorded yet uninvolving music.
I’ve looked at sound from both sides now… : )
What I didn’t get yet is:
is it his monitoring system (sounding so great with any recording) or is it the difference between a digital master and a digital commercial media (so to say its digital copy) that makes the experience?
A bit of both. Just as any master sounds great on the system on which it was mixed – that’s a de facto bit where its all potentially downhill from there.
If he loaded a digital download of the DSD onto the Sonoma, played through the Meitners, it would likely sound near-as-dammit-identical. But most of us don’t have a Sonoma or Meitners as source and DAC. So it’s a bit hard to say that the digital end-user medium is at fault.
Many of us here can play back an SACD Gus has mastered on the DMP. It gets closer than a lot of things do, but is still a ways away.
Gus would be a great chance for you to compare a digital master to its official download and its physical media on the same Meitner setup 😉 Would be really interesting what the difference is.
https://www.facebook.com/RecordingAcademy/videos/854643338215513/
I’m admittedly closer to a Peter and Gordon fan than Billie Eilish, but at the risk of freaking some folks out hereabouts, here’s what Vibe is about to The Grandkids ; )
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/01/arts/music/billie-eilish-bury-a-friend.html?
She’s already blowing up, but if you get Timbaland digging your Vibe – it’s a major deal.
Once at a trade show the chief engineer from Maxell showed me his measurements for his tape and compared it to TDK. He ran the measurements for both on a Nakamichi Dragon tape deck, possibly the best cassette deck ever. I told him the test was invalid and wouldn’t be until he optimized the bias and equalization for the TDK tape and his were still better. He offered me a job.
I think if you had 20 recording engineers making a recording the same event you’d get 20 recordings that were all different. Which one would you like best, seem closest to the original performance? That would depend on your person taste but also on your playback equipment. With no way to compensate for differences in the recordings contemporary high end audio systems have no way to make a valid comparison even a subjective one.
The current state of the art of measuring sound is still inadequate. What’s more all of the recording systems we have do not accurately capture all of the dimensions of sound we hear. It’s like comparing black and white 2D photos when a 3D color images is what you are trying to duplicate with a photograph. It won’t always necessarily be this way but today that’s the best we’ve got.
Good post!
How dare you give me a compliment? Are you feeling okay?
Yeah, thanks. Slept good. Just figured with the subject being Vibe, we’d be getting the “Gorillas in the Mist” story again ; ). This one is concise and on-topic. Good on yer, mate.
I didn’t wait for the end of the movie. If there hadn’t been a contact to donate money to save the gorillas I’d have been very disappointed. Everyone has their hand out. Save the trees, save the starving children, save the world, and most dangerous of them all is save my soul. Don’t walk away, RUN AS FAST AND AS FAR AS YOUR LEGS CAN CARRY YOU AND WHILE YOU’RE RUNNING PUT YOUR HANDS IN YOUR POCKETS AND HOLD ON AS TIGHTLY AS YOU CAN TO YOUR MONEY. Billionaires want my donations. Every day I get six or eight text messages from Donald Trump and the Republican Party asking for donations. If they can’t afford to finance their campaign from all their rich friends then what good will my donation do? Besides I don’t agree with everything he does. In fact I’m pissed off at some of the things he’s done and some he hasn’t done. Last time he asked for a rating I generously gave him a B+ and told him how and why he fucked up. When he screws up I tell him and I also told him I’m much tougher than he is. Remember I was born in the Bronx and I’m 1/4 Transylvanian vampire all in my DNA. He was born in Wussland Queens where I grew up as the devil about a mile from his house. Heaven help the world if I were President of the United States. BTW, NOBODY on this earth can sell me expensive audio cables or expensive wall outlets. Maybe I’ll put a sign on my lawn; “no tresspassers, Brits, or audio equipment salesmen allowed. Violators will be shot on sight.” I’ve got my musket, musket balls, power horn, and ramrod next to my fireplace at the ready in case those damned Redcoats ever show their faces around here again.
Guess I asked for that one…
I simply love your humor! Makes this place better.
Very much appreciated – as one mostly only hears specific responses from Haters. I really appreciate your posts as well, Jazznut.
To be honest, I have Soundmind to thank for the inspiration/being compelled to inject humor into the proceedings here. When I started reading Paul’s Posts again three years ago, it seemed a Very Serious Place Indeed, dominated by objectivists/scientists, some of whom (koff, koff) posted lengthy diatribes against the Community as a whole, with little or no pushback. I felt the need to push back, with humor.
It has only taken the two of us about three years to approach civil discourse online : ) An interesting mini-case study.
Why can’t we All Just Get Along? ; )
Pollyanna-ish, I know. I plead a Happy Childhood, yer Honor.
“Yeah, W E F U N K, y’all now this is what I want you all to do
If you got faults, defects or shortcomings you know
Like arthritis, rheumatism or migraines
Whatever part of your body it is, I want you to lay it on your radio
Let the vibes flow through, funk not only moves, it can remove, dig?
The desired effect is what you get
When you improve your Interplanetary Funksmanship”
–“P-funk (wants to get funked up)” Written By Bernie Worrell, Bootsy Collins & George Clinton
I could not say it any better than in 1975 and Parliament.
The Vibe is the “hook” of a great recording.
Hi Paul. It occurs to me that when Octave Records is up and running you will be in a perfect position to make an SACD/CD telling the listener exactly what he/she should be hearing when they play it back in their own system.
Also, it should help you in listening to and designing your company’s products. After all, you would be right there listening to the live performance being recorded and then being played back. This sounds like an ideal position for a manufacturer/designer to be in. I can’t wait to hear what you come up with.
What good is a recording that is so accurate that it becomes irritating at best or unlistenable at worst. The object of playing a recording is not to listen to accuracy but to involving music. So do whatever you may have to do to produce musically involving recordings. Stands to reason. Regards.
Well put – and why most professionals don’t worry about the stuff most audiophiles do. Their passion is making recordings as opposed to listening to them. Very different pursuits.
“Unlike the audiophile perspective, you’re not looking to maintain the integrity of the incoming signal – indeed you’re creating vibe.”
Total disagreement here. I don’t give a damn about the incoming signal, I want the “vibe.” To be specific, I don’t want Rudy Van Gelder, I want John Coltrane.
Y’all are missing fully half the fun of being an audiophile when you don’t go out and capture it live yourself. Even with a lack to top-notch equipment or understanding, you can still capture some very precious moments. My first recording rig was a Revox A77 1/4 track machine at 7 1/2 ips. I had two Shure SM57 dynamic cardiod mikes and a solid state mike preamp built by a guy I knew from the Boston Audio Society. I have NO IDEA what I was doing, but even so, got some great stuff.
Here’s a track from 1979 of the Johnny Coppola Big Band playing a dance date at Bianchini’s Restaurant in Daly City, CA. Johnny was my trumpet teacher and the guys in his band were heavy hitters. Johnny used to play lead trumpet for Woody Herman, Stan Kenton, Charlie Barnett and Billy May. He was the most powerful trumpet player I’ve ever heard. He could single handedly bury a whole big band from the lead trumpet chair. He passed away a couple years ago but his music still kills it.
I put the two mikes on either side of the hall, pointed at the band. Like I said, I had NO clue, but even so, I captured the swing. This has that sound like you’ve heard from jam session tapes of guys like Bird where some newbie showed up with a tape recorder. Here’s their rendition of “Take the A-Train”. Johnny’s solo is about 2/3rds of the way through.
http://johncoppola.org/recordings/bianchinis/A_Train.mp3
Here’s a much more recent effort of mine. This is my wife’s string quartet in the first movement of the Ravel String Quartet.
http://temescalquartet.com/sounds/Ravel96_mvt1.flac
You would be shocked at how inexpensively I was able to get a recording this good.
I agree totally about making your own recordings, especially when played back on your own system – it really gives you a buzz (so to speak).
I’ve been recording my wifes (band leader) eight piece band. She plays sax, tenor, alto and soprano. The CD’s help support many charities.
They play music of the 30’s to the 60’s, very popular especially with the older generation.
Heres a taster..
https://soundcloud.com/user-26111423/isle-of-capri-selection
Yes, its great fun and very satisfying.