Over the top
Join Our Community Subscribe to Paul's PostsWhen it comes to having company over for dinner my family’s general rule of thumb has always been better too much than too little.
Too much at the dinner table just sets the stage for lunch leftovers. No big deal.
But when it comes to your HiFi system, too much can be…dare I say…..too much.
As audiophiles, we can fall into the trap of pushing the improvement envelope too hard: adding DSP or an equalizer when all we really needed was some time and elbow grease. An add on super tweeter or perhaps one of many aftermarket tweaks guaranteed to make everything that much better.
It’s always tempting to turn what’s great into something even better.
In my experience, those add ons are short-lived.
If you’re looking for better, always start with the basics: speakers, power amplifiers, preamps, and sources.
A lunch of leftovers is easy.
Unloading to the used market unnecessary add ons gets painful.
And room treatment. I’m sure you inadvertently forgot that.
And what about noise free, clean mains power supply? What, if all audio circuits were optimized based on battery and ultra-caps supplies with low impedance feeding these circuits? And for the final product the designer had to decide which „cheaper and noisier“ SMPS or LPS he has to implement according the targeted price for the end-user – and make a final voicing for masking the deficiencies of the selected power supply! I once met a freelancer designing and tweaking (!) gear for highend audio companies and he told me that there was only a single supplier worldwide who could manufacture a transformer meeting his requirements for minimum quality.
And the list goes on.
How about cheaper, more efficient and cleaner switch mode and linear power supplies? That’s where so many people are going.
If someone thought there was only one supplier in the world who made a decent transformer, I’m not surprised they are freelancer as no one sensible would employ them.
I guess that the manufacturers of audio equipment for the mass consumer market have huge controlling departments and primarily focus on profit maximization! Thus the primary job of an audio engineer is to reduce the production costs to the limit where the mass consumer is unable to notice audible degradations compared to a cost no object design – easy job with a poor loudspeaker! By the way, a friend of mine has worked for Philips. Consumer Electronics in Eindhoven for more than 30 years. 🙂 And I met many people with untrained ears which are unable to tell the differences in perceived sound quality between a top tier stereo system and a sound bar for their tv-set. And they don’t even care for a minimum level of “HIFI” 🙂
Quite the opposite. Companies like Onkyo work in highly competitive markets, have to provide very high value for money, operate a gross profit margin of 25% to 30% and in recent years has made small losses.
Yamaha is much larger, but operates in several more profitable markets, makes about 30% gross margin and 10% net margin.
I suspect most hi-end audio manufacture outside of Asia is spectacularly inefficient, plus that you can pay ten times as much for THE SAME parts in EU and USA as they cost in Asia.
The last product I bought, last week, multiple award winning, UK designed and made in China, probably better than the Strata and one third the price, cost only 25% more than the Sprout.
Steven
Please share the product you recently bought that is cheaper than Strata. I am interested
Thanks.
taiye
https://www.stereophile.com/content/cambridge-audio-cxa81-integrated-amplifier-measurements
There is a false comparison to the $1,500 Schiit Ragnarok, because there is a 60w version called CXA61 that is only $1,000. Plus the CXA81 actually measures at 90w. I bought the CXA81 because I’ve had two 60w units and I wanted close to 100w. It’a a shame the reviewer did not use an alternate better pair of speakers.
There are plenty of products in this part of the audio market and the consumer can get very good quality for a very low price. It is because the Chinese have created the largest export zone in the world that can make high quality electronics incredibly cheaply. I was there 35 years ago and it was a muddy swamp.
Thanks Steven. I suspected as much as you intimated same product in your earlier posting. i agree and I am buying it for my daughter.
Thanks again.
taiye
You’re welcome. I was reminded of it by a forum member, several have it. The Stereophile review is well written and it measures very well. Your daughter might find the Bluetooth AptX HD a good streaming option.
If you’re going to compare audio systems to a meal, I would suggest it’s a matter of deciding how many courses you really need and do too many courses just confuse the palette.
A good assessment of a tweak is if it is a standard feature on other products. My last tweak was a VTA adjuster for a Jelco tonearm. Many tonearms have VTA adjusters, including another one I use, the Jelco did not. DSP is also fairly standard these days, it is included in both my server and streamer software.
I don’t know what to think any longer. When it comes to DSP / room correction applying it to streaming or local PCM files is a nice feature. When playing vinyl or an analog source, that has to be converted to a digital PCM signal if you want use DSP. To follow even further it negates any advantage of DSD recordings, be they SACD or downloads if you want to maintain the DSD signal from start to end. You might as well use redbook format / stream / or use a downloaded sample rate of the max digital value your DSP supports.
When using a sub I found that keeping the low freqs (in my case 45Hz and below) out of the main speakers added tremendously to sound presentation and balance) So there’s a few ways to do that…. using the sub built in crossover, DSP, or adding an electronic analog subwoofer crossover somewhere in the preamp line (either in the tape loop line, or between the preamp and amps, or between the source and preamp) This disadvantage of that (I assume) is that I’m adding more cables plus the system over all sound presentation becomes limited by how well the electronic crossover analog outputs are implemented in the crossover. (Is it completely neutral or adding some coloration)
Lastly I suppose I could go with large full range speakers with passive crossovers. But there’s limitations there also.
Tweaks for isolation and coupling are valuable in my experience and can help substantially. Physical treatments of the room (where possible and accepted) also add tremendously.
So in the end there in no panacea and I guess that’s the reason there are so many choices and ways to approach 2 channel audio.
Running subbies in parallel with the main speakers (look away, Paul) isn’t affecting the main signal.
Thanks Peter,
I understand that. What I have found on my 2 way main speakers is that if I keep those low frequency out of them the sound improves, in imaging and soundstage and in mid / high range purity. The conundrum becomes on how best to achieve that.
Mike, I think you are suffering from a chronic case of “audiophilia neurotica”. Most of your impressions are just mind games. Keep it simple.
CtA
I don’t have a chronic case of anything other than enjoying a reasonably good home audio system.
When you look at choices to do what I want they become very limited. Pluses and Negative’s
But thanks for your diagnosis and advise. Neither of which is helpful. 😉
Your description in your first post seems that you may be in denial….
It happens. It took me many years to realize this. All that agitation, all that money wasted! I was conned by these “gurus” with “bat ears”.
I’m not denying anything but merely stated facts as I see them, and I am certainly not agitated. I haven’t wasted any money because of being sucked in by some marketing charlatan or marketing propaganda.
I know what I like, I have a specific budget, and I’m not headed over the cliff.
You want simple and you got it, now you look back with regrets of money spent. I may be looking something more complex, but from my perspective it’s really not complex. Just a choice on how to proceed if I choose to. I have no real regrets concerning any gear I’ve ever had and haven’t wasted any money on something I enjoy.
Aww, I dunno CtA – sounds like Mike has actually been discovering things and having FUN all these years!
Thanks Gravitas!
I’m still having fun – still learning –
Still smiling 😀
As long as you are aware and in control, enjoy. Everyone has its idiosyncratic behavior.
Thx CtA
What really spun me up was your line…
“ Most of your impressions are just mind games.”
My impressions when it comes to audio are formed by observation, research and knowing what kind of sound I like. Not by seat of the pants emotional decisions.
Just looking to have fun in this hobby. At this stage of my life I have the option to play around with some choices so that’s what I’m going to do. No one is going to tell me when or how to do it.
I think you read something into my post that I never intended. I just merely pointed out in real terms how difficult or easy (if you want) it is to push the improvement envelope too hard.
When it comes to selecting gear and how to set it up, I also consider the 4 different types of listening.
Audiophile listening – usually one person sitting in the sweet spot.
Casual listening – one or more people enjoying music but probably moving about the house, not sitting still.
Entertaining – background music for dinner, conversations, games, etc
Party – loud music for large group with dancing, singing, etc.
My experience is that conventional stereo speakers have relatively poor dispersion and only throw sound a short distance. This is probably a good thing, as long as you can set them up properly. For your other three categories we use plug-and-play devices (a Sonos Soundbar, Devialet Reactors and Naim MuSo Qb2). Sonos and Reactor sound quality is quite mid-fi, but they are designed as much as a P.A. speaker with superb dispersion and throw, and for parties you can link Reactors together. They are good at voice, so good with TV and talk radio.
Actually, properly designed speakers are supposed to have good dispersion, horizontally and even vertically. Unless you prefer to ignore Toole and Olive….
I don’t believe I fall into the classification of needing to add any more basic components to my system so I have employed some tweaks like speaker cable lifters, a VPI Magic brick On top of my amplifier power transformer, Goldmund methacrylate turntable platter and record weight and the like. I don’t see or hear how they do any harm and they have been in my system for quite some time and have definitely made improvements in overall musicality. On the flip-side, I have delved into the ROON parametric equalizer… judiciously but that led me deeper and deeper into a dark hole of definite over usage before I backed off to my original setting because it was addicting and really frustrating to try improve the sound. I won’t be using it anymore. So I see today’s topic as a mixed bag depending on the individual’s system and their subjective reality of what Improves system sound and what doesn’t. I think it’s wrong to use every trick in the book out of boredom and believing that you could ring out an ounce or two of improvement
I’m so glad to know that 1200watts per channel is not “over the top” 😉
Makes my 750 watts seem tame. 😀
Makes my 100 watts positively pre-pubescent 🙁
I have a very small, very problematic room and was on the verge of trying a Lyngdorf amp with it’s Room Perfect. In the end, I decided on a robotic cleaner for the pool instead. LOL.
An equalizer is a very powerful tool. It can change the frequency response of an entire sound system. Recording engineers use them to get the sound of their recordings the way they want them to be. All of those “add ons” are their toolkit. But that sound is what they want to hear on their monitoring system. It’s different from the sound other recording engineers produce on other recordings and it’s different from what your sound system will produce. Admittedly it takes skill to use it effectively and it has limits to what it can do. Nevertheless when used effectively it can make sounds more pleasing and even more accurate.
As for DSP that stands for “digital signal processor.” There are many types that perform many functions. The so called auto room correction is simply a signal generator, a microphone, an equalizer, and a spectrum analyzer. The process has been done in the digital domain and is automated. My experience with using this system in the analog mode manually gave unsatisfactory results so I rely on my ears. For each system I have a 10 band for adjustment of the overall system and a five or seven band for each recording. For the ten band I consider the equalizer a fine adjustment and the tone controls on the preamp a coarse adjustment made first. It takes me about two years to adjust a ten band equalizer to get what I want. My advice is to make small incremental adjustments one at a time and record your settings. Slowly but surely over time I get what I want. As for the recordings that usually takes far less time. I have to record the optimal settings for each recording on each system. In my experience most audiophiles gave up because they wanted plug ‘n play. They did not want to take the time to develop these skills and many have no target reference they try to duplicate.
The more critical a listener I became the more I realize that I never heard a speaker system that I liked at any price. The only other option for me is to reengineer them. Oddly the best speaker I have that only required equalization was AR2ax, a speaker I never liked when it was on the market.
The add ons I don’t buy are audiophile wires, things that raise wires off the floor, expensive connectors, special isolation stands and things that raise speakers off the floor, and super expensive equipment whose performance I can duplicate or better with all of the adjustments I have.
“Unloading to the used market unnecessary add ons gets [financially] painful.”
Not if you’re the buyer. 🙂
In the last five years I have upgraded every major component (speakers,amps,TT,digital, etc.) in my system. I have not upgraded my cables except for new longer speaker cables when I went for monoblocks to a stereo power amp and the HDMI cable between my transport and DAC, I firmly believe that better sound comes first from better gear and then can be fine tuned with tweaks. To my surprise after I read Paul’s post I started to thinking about my tweaks and I discovered that I have a foot fetish when it comes to tweaks. 😀 I have tweaked the feet on my TT ( I traded in my standard feet for HW-40 feet on my VPI Classic Direct TT ), I have replaced the standard rubber feet on my preamp and phono preamp with Iso Acoustics’ Orea isolation pucks and have replace the standard feet on my Magico S7 speaker with Magico’s new CLD pods. Each of these has made improvements in bass response, sound stage or clarity of the sound. I was surprised to see that both Iso Acoustics and Magico have published data on how much vibration control their “feet” provide.
I have also bought an amp stand for my stereo power amp, however, my motivation was not sound improvement. The thing is huge, it weighs 220 lbs. and was sitting on the floor. I have almost kicked into the amp three times. I decided that before I damage the amp, my foot (since I usually wear sandals inside) or both I better get the thing off of the floor. This tweak has been very effective.
What so often stands out about these blog entries is their dubious starting point. Thus, how fitting is it that a self-appointed diet guru believes in serving too much food, ignoring — probably ignorant of — the well-researched finding that “if you put it in front of people, they will instinctively eat more,” i.e. more than they would otherwise eat. Ironically, had that been the starting point, then the analogy to high end audio would have been right on the money.
I quickly learned on my first cruise that the difference between eating enough to feel full and satisfied and eating enough to have a pain in my stomach was only a few bites. It try to keep that in mind when I’m at risk of overeating something I really like.
When audiophiles are constantly “upgrading” their systems they are re-engineering them. How satisfied with their results over the long term is a test of their engineering skills. The more they have to shop and swap the less skill they have. It’s not always a measure of money, far from it. It’s a test of knowledge and skill. The long history of lists of equipment most audiophiles lusted for, acquired, and then got rid of over and over and over again doesn’t speak well of them.
Poor Steve Guttenberg. He’s made some bad purchases and chased down some bad equipment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCQUgsoTBUc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGZxpPCIUgY
I was sad for Steve when he said this. He had an Empire 598 turntable but he didn’t know that he had to adjust the three wing nuts on the underside to adjust the springiness of the suspended subchassis that supported the tonearm, platter, and motor. As a result it bounced around all the time so he got rid of it.
It’s the table full of audiophile choices that drives the business and reinforces the fetishism of commodities, obliterating the line between need and want.
One benefit of the internet is that there’s almost always a place to ask a question about some conundrum one encounters and have a reasonable chance of getting a proper answer, or at least where to go to get one.
I did the ‘simple’, NON black box route with my system.
Martin Logan eStats with matching subwoofer- John Curl amp and preamp and various sources consisting of a TT, a R to R, and a multi disc player. No mysteries there (O:
Oh, and a number of ATS custom panels for taming a bit of echo in my open listening space. That is all.
Pretty great post. Makes one music/sound obsessed junkie to think about where to draw the line!! 😉
I’ll be honest. I’m not done yet. 😉