If it walks like a…
Join Our Community Subscribe to Paul's PostsWhen we think of products in terms of functionality they’re all somewhat the same. DACs convert digital to analog, power amps drive speakers, preamps control the level. But, that’s often where the similarities end.
How a product does what it does makes all the difference in the world. The output of an R2R ladder DAC and a DSD-based DirectStream DAC may look the same, but they’re not even close in how they got there—nor in how they sound.
The same is true for power conditioners. They have AC power going into them, and with multiple AC sockets at their outputs, some modified form of AC coming out. To say or even suggest that a power conditioner or isolation transformer has anything other than form factor in common with a Power Plant would be grossly incorrect. Yet, it happens all the time.
We invented the Power Plant concept in 1997. Since that time, 23 years ago, one of our long-standing life’s missions has been to help people understand the black and white differences between an active AC regenerator and a power conditioner. The only thing the two have in common is one AC input and many AC outputs.
Because Power Plants provide instant dynamic voltage and current regulation along with rebuilding the AC sine wave itself, they are unflinching in their rock-steady delivery of AC power to equipment. A power conditioner, on the other hand, does little to justify its namesake. The condition of the power through a conditioner is, for the most part, unchanged—except to have made it slightly worse in the very areas a Power Plant makes it better. Impedance. (this too applies to isolation transformer based conditioners as well, though they are closer to their namesakes in that they do isolate)
Active voltage and current regulation are the keys to reversing what many people fear most with the addition of a power conditioner—loss of dynamics and life. Those who have figured out they’re likely better off plugging their power amps directly into the wall socket rather than cripple them with a conditioner, isolation transformer, or any passive device, have exactly the opposite reaction when listening through the lowered impedance of a Power Plant.
Just because it walks like a Power Plant, it certainly doesn’t sound like one.
I reconsidered my regenerator because I realised I had rock solid mains, an audio unit that is meant to be indifferent to the mains supply and it buzzed. I had a conditioner before PSA and replaced PSA with a cables/distributor system. The current unit is focused on maximum current, low impedance and isolating noise from the mains and, equally importantly, noise fed back by components. A lot of it is about using heavy duty construction and mechanical isolation. Both companies, the first being older than PSA, started outside of audio, mainly medical and military. The first company also makes regenerators.
I think Paul is wrong to mischaracterise all these products out of hand, which are widely used in medicine and industry as well as pro and consumer audio.
After changing my system the regenerator made no obvious difference and I’d taken it out. The new device is silent and very effective.
I have no doubt that different quality power supply and different audio systems may result in benefit deriving from different products. Moreover regenerators are large, heavy and expensive, whoever makes them.
“We invented the Power Plant concept in 1997″ as a stand alone component perhaps, but Paul has previously written the inspiration for the Power Plant was derived from the AC Regenerator incorporated into the Mark Levinson No33 Monaural Power Amplifier.
Everyone’s AC power delivery is unique, therefore, there are few universal power management solutions, just what is best for any individual application.
https://www.marklevinson.com/on/demandware.static/-/Sites-masterCatalog_Harman/default/dwa0c4e013/pdfs/Mark%20Levinson%20No33_Manual.pdf
Mark Levinson No33 – AC Regeneration Page #13
“A distortion-free 60 Hz sinewave is regenerated within the Nº33, and then used
to power a separate power supply dedicated to all the voltage gain stages. AC
power is delivered from the wall to the primary supply of the Nº33, where it is
rectified, filtered and regulated into positive and negative DC voltages. A portion
of this DC power is then used to drive an oscillator circuit which regenerates a
pure 60 Hz sinewave without any of the noise or contamination so common to
the AC mains as delivered to our homes by power utilities.
The regenerated, pure sinusoidal AC wave is then sent to a dedicated secondary
power supply, where it is converted to positive and negative DC power to be
used by all of the voltage gain stages. This dedicated supply for voltage gain
stages benefits from having a truly balanced source (unlike the dissimilar imped-
ances of AC mains line and neutral), as well as from the total elimination of AC
mains fluctuations and noise.”
I’m sorry but because of the time differences (I’m sleeping while the rest of you guys are discussing topics ‘on & ‘off’) I didn’t really get to join in last night (last night for me) for the whole COVID-19 discussion. So I’m gonna finish off now.
I didn’t mean to start the whole China’s ‘accountability’ NOT ‘blame’ (blame is the word that PM likes to use, & instead of using the word accountability I feel that Paul is missing the point) thing up again, but obviously it is affecting us all…greatly! Just look at yesterday’s discussion if you’re in any doubt.
For those of us who have reasonable wealth & can sit back & say that everything is ok & we’ll get through this pandemic ok & we will come out the other side ok, well good for you & good for your bulging bank accounts that will get you through this COVID-19 outbreak…not everyone is so lucky. And not everyone WILL get through it!
Now, the main point that I want to make, before I completely shut the f#@k up about making China accountable for this pandemic is…Does any body understand the concept of MANSLAUGHTER?
You know, when you cause someone’s death, but you didn’t mean for them to die, but you still have to be ACCOUNTABLE for the death of a human being(s)? Do you have manslaughter in the USofA? Do you now understand why I feel that China should be held accountable? Yes China didn’t mean for this to happen but it DID happen & it came from China, China’s behaviour caused it…pure & simple. It is akin to manslaughter & they should therefore be held accountable…I can’t make it any plainer.
COVID-19 rant now over for good!
FR, you can still post in yesterday‘s topic, you don’t have to carry topics to the next day.
The funny or not so funny thing is, topics people have (in this case daily) make their way to any place if no special place is given to them…no matter if Covid, China, politics etc. There is no way suppressing them.
jazznut,
Yeah & I was going to leave it there; hard to believe I know.
However, todays title, “If it walks like a…” was just too appropriate for me too make my final point on this matter, specifically about ‘Manslaughter.’
‘If it walks like a lying Chinese Communist Party that likes to rewrite it’s own history…’ 😉
Enough now!
I like the rants FR. 😀 and even some of the responses….
How well are the subs integrating 🙂 ?
Mike,
Integrating well, thanks for asking.
I’ve pulled them further away from the walls (& one from the corner) & today I’m gonna set them on horizontally placed concrete Cinder blocks, to raise them about 8″ off the floor.
Without getting into many words & adjectives at this point, I feel that pulling them forward some & getting them away from the floor will ‘clean up’ the ultra-low bass frequencies & make those frequencies more defined (musical) & reduce any residual ‘Home Theatre thumpiness’
FR,
Thanks for the report 😎
It took me a long time to find the correct positioning and isolation for mine. Then even longer to match phase, cross over slopes, gains etc.
But once I tripped over the ‘right’ (versus correct?) combo it was like musical bliss. What surprised me was how much more the middle and upper highs emerged, but did not dominate.
So cinder blocks instead of besser blocks? 🙂
I’ll keep it simple: State immunity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_immunity
The irony is that the USA have never been a full member of the International Criminal Court (it had observer status under Obama), so refuses to be part of the legitimate system for bringing international criminal prosecutions. The ICC has been reasonably effective against war criminals and the like.
So they don’t want to be part of an international system that does work, but now some US state wants to prosecute when they have right or jurisdiction to do so.
Manslaughter and most criminal matters are offences against the State, not the victim. Hence the State can impose financial and custodial penalties, whereas civil law tends to be illegal acts against individuals, when money is involved it involves compensation (e.g. restitutio ad integrum).
Rant on dude! The more selective suppression, censorship, editing and deletion of posts occurring here daily, the more it resembles PRC indoctrination. 🙁
Freedom of Speech – Rocks!
The conundrum I’ve run into regarding power plants…
On the system I’m currently using for my main one, a large difference (for the better) in the sound stage and presence was obtained by the use of an isolation transformer for the preamp and DSDAC ( the transformer / conditioner is rated at 20A) . In fact the M700’s when plugged into it collapsed the sound stage to as flat and as deep as a large piece of wallboard.
Needless to say the M700’s are plugged directly into the wall at this moment, are on individual stands, and have Mechanical vibration isolation feet added to them. Those changes to the amps alone made as big a difference as the isolation transformer made to the front end.
Of course the question becomes… how much better will things get? Here’s the real question I guess… assuming a load it kept to within 75% of the ‘regenerated output rating’ of any Power Plant, is there a difference in sound quality between Any of the power plants?
I bought a P15 and after hearing a P20 in a friend’s system I bought the P20 – clear improvement. It wasn’t an issue of needing more power. My amplifier is a whopping 20 WPC. Like most audio components it is the quality of parts, design, features, and power supply that make audible improvements.
Thx dpsa,
That’s exactly what I didn’t want to hear.
I would like to own a Power Plant but we folks of moderate means can’t afford them. Any chance a less expensive version will made for the common audiophiles?
I would propose to design better power supplies for both power amps and source components! The budget you need for a power regenerator/conditioner and the mandatory highend power cables could be spent for these clean & high performance power supplies. Naim Audio offers most potential external power supply boxes since decades, boxes which also keep AC remote from the audio circuits when placed as far as possible from the audio rack!
I agree with your thesis. I think manufacturers are taking steps to improve the problem. Marsh Sound Design on its balanced preamplifier, has been very careful in designing its power supply and even has an RFI / EMF filter on the AC input. This is not an improvisation since R. Marsh was the one who designed the Monster Power products.
My treatment of AC energy, begins with having my own 25 KW transformer connected to the high voltage network, so that said supply is not contaminated by the other neighbors (who are connected to the secondary of the public network as known ). A true grounding system is included in the installation. This transformer is oversized for the load of the house, so I have no problems with voltage fluctuation.
Perhaps for others this care is only part of the solution to the problem, but I say that in my case, this works.
Mike: The manufacturer of my unit (Shunyata) makes a big thing about the mechanical isolation of both the entire unit (special feet) and individual components within the unit. I have no idea why mechanical isolation improves power supplies and some electronics. Innuos do the same with special feet on all their Mk3 units. They also use 3 feet asymmetrically placed, which seems much more sensible that 4 feet in the corners. There must be something to it. Innuos also use a high quality mains filter on the a/c input; mine also has three separate internal linear power supplies.
paulsquirrel: Naim have indeed sold external power for all their component audio going back at least to the 1980s. I also agree that an answer is to design a great power supply, which Devialet did, but it still benefits from my external distributor.
The one device that really benefits from external power are phono pre-amps. I have no idea how the Stellar unit manages without one. My phono deals with it by enclosing the sensitive electronics in a double thickness metal box and adding a further internal metal wall between that and the power supply.
So I think Paul’s argument also fails to recognise that manufacturers address power issues in their own ways that often obviate the need for external solutions. This particularly relates to digital and Class D audio products.
Steven,
I don’t have the scientific knowledge as to why mechanical isolators (versus electrical) make such big differences. But if they hadn’t, they would have been on the fast track back. Electrical management makes more sense to me. Whether through the use of faraday cage concepts, really good power supply design, isolation etc from power supplies, and all the other concepts Out there, including cables.
If factors are taken into account in the design and manufacture then all the better. If not and the same results can be achieved in the aftermarket tweak world, then that’s acceptable also.
I accidentally stacked my phono amp under the power supply of my turntable and g0t a nasty buzz, I put the phono amp somewhere else and the buzzing went away. So you have to avoid being an idiot sometimes!
I’m surprised Faraday cages aren’t used more often. Casings are often overlooked. Devialet almost completely enclosed the entire thing, which they resolved in 2016 in the Expert range by upgrading the rear connection and base panels to a 4mm thick piece of copper. It’s now fully enclosed.
DNM have used an expensive acrylic for over 30 years and generally avoid metal components: http://www.dnm.co.uk/about.html I quote:
“Since 1984 all DNM casework has been made in an attractive acrylic, an ideal material for an amplifier case because it’s a good electrical insulator, so it doesn’t interact with the signal and DNM’s light, flat-panel construction ensures that casework resonances remain at a low energy level, reducing microphony and improving all aspects of performance.
The acrylic that DNM selected is not a standard “off-the-shelf” type – it is a precision material, much more expensive than most metal casework. DNM use plastic in all parts of the construction, the chassis parts and even the fixing screws are strong nylon. We use plastic because of the extra performance it gives our products – and as a bonus the lower weight actually boosts the sound quality as well! “
Computer Audio Design of Great Britain also uses acrylic cases in their highly aclaimed DAC, transport and grounding devices.
Hey Paul, have you considered a different form factor on the regenerators that would highlight that they are not the same as other power products? If it looks different from conditioners and transformers, and sounds different from conditioners and transformers…then it is different? This is a shameless bow to marketing, but if the performance is the same and you can sell more of them, maybe it still fits in the PS Audio philosophy.
To paraphrase Hamlet’s statement to Horatio; there are more kinds of power conditioners in heaven and earth Paul than are dreamt of in your philosophy. They work on entirely different principles from each other. Some of the early ones going back over 50 years are ferro-resonant transformers, saturable core transformers, harmonic neutralizer transformers. Many were made by Sola which made some of the early UPSs. The PMC or power management centers we bought from Liebert had huge banks of capacitors, inductors, and transformers. A more modern type is the zig-zag transformer. There was a motor generator with a flywheel for storing energy with rotary inertia. A variant are still used today in combination with UPSs or as a substitute for them although they don’t have nearly the ride through time of typical battery powered UPSs. There are K rated transformers designed to deal with harmonics. Ordinary transformers have a K rating of 1. The are available with K ratings up to 30. Even among UPSs there are a number of different types. They type you buy for your home computer is called a line interactive type. The most commonly used type is the double static conversion type. There are rotary types and rotary/ double static conversion hybrids. Each type has its advantages and disadvantages. There was one type that Controlled Data tried to sell me that was a multi-tap switching transformer.
So there are a bewildering array to choose from. In my own house I’ve installed MOVs on my main circuit breaker panel and a small line interactive UPS on my desktop computer. End user substations can have MOVs that cost up to $10,000 each. For industrial users cost is usually the last thing I think about. My job is to spend the money. Their job is to provide the money. I’ll keep up my end of the deal if they keep up theirs.
Paul !Im gonna make a suggestion. Why not take the political finger pointing and anger for the right or the left side to a single thread in the Forums. Watch how fast it turns into a hornets nest. Politics online will never work to long without pedantic and anger getting in the way. I would like to learn more about audio and the betterment of it! Sorry , No rant , I know I can just not reply or ignore! But, I would like to learn more about power conditioners and re generators! I already know how much the left hates the right !
Given PS Audio’s adoption of Audioquest cables, it seems ironic that just this week The Music Room, a PSA neighbor and former dealer, put out a special e-mailing about AQ’s Niagara 5000 power conditioner being far and away the best of its kind they’ve ever heard — and the 5000 is not even the top of AQ’s line. I don’t know, but can’t help but wonder if Paul’s post today was motivated by that email.
One thing about regenerators, given their heft and multiple connections, is that comparisons with conditioners is not like those with other components.
The Music Room is also the recipient of PS Audio’s trade-ins, so they have a symbiotic business relationship. They move a lot of used equipment.
Well then, are Audioquest cables the best? short answer – punchy. However, it’s a good opportunity when Bill Low scans the warehouse at the end of March 2020 and sees piles of inventory sitting not unlike 2008-2009 so why not ship some to Colorado for PSA to warehouse, sell piecemeal and pay as they go. As far as Audioquest’s balance sheet is concerned it’s a receivable and therefore a plus.
Certainly the local high-end retailer who built the brand across the Colorado front range over the last 35+ years is thrilled, but then again, you can pretty much purchase AQ everywhere.
https://www.psaudio.com/connections/
Electrical engineers classify power anomalies into 9 different categories. The only equipment that addresses all nine of them is a double static conversion UPS. The line interactive UPS cannot correct for incoming line frequencies deviating by more than +/- 8 percent. This can happen when a backup generator has a faulty governor. It also has high harmonic distortion.
Double static conversion UPSs can now typically specify 2% harmonic distortion or less. That’s four times what a power regenerator is capable of. One anomaly a power regenerator cannot deal with is a total loss of power. It also probably has a lower limit for incoming voltage since it needs sufficient voltage for biasing the output amplifier stage. I’ve used double static conversion UPSs successfully on the most sensitive state of the art electronic equipment including electron microscopes, HPLCs, and mass spectrometers. The last two are used to evaluate and assure the quality control of pharmaceutical products among other things so your life could depend on them. My favorite brand at the moment is Eaton Powerware. I think the smallest single phase double static conversion around, at least the smallest one I’ve seen is around 8 KVA. You will have to replace the batteries periodically and they aren’t cheap. But you have to do the same with vacuum tubes. As they say if you can’t afford the sizzle then you can’t afford the steak. Here’s a specification suggested by Eaton for this type of product. They also offer power conditioners but I didn’t look at them.
https://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@electrical/documents/content/pct_1192537.pdf
The only similarity between power conditioners and regenerators is that they both deal with the mains. Other than that they are different products as per Paul’s post. My logic dictates I use a regenerator. Why try to recondition something, in this case a flawed supply, when you can recreate something better, a carefully regenerated or reconstructed supply. Become your own power company!
I understand it is generally not recommended to use a conditioner on power amps as they can be restrictive of the high current demands which impairs sound. Adequate regenerators don’t have this problem.
Do some research on the internet, other less expensive power regenerators are available. I have one and consider it one of the most cost effective upgrades I ever made. They may not be as good as PS Audio but they could be, or very close. How am I going to know? Does anyone chop and change their power components?
Re power amps and their product, AQ and The Music Room would disagree with you.
Paul-Is there a reason why your regenerators don’t utilize Class D technology to make them much lighter in weight ?
I looked up the regenerator made by the UK company, which is even more expensive than the P20, and larger, and it is also class A/B. However, design features include solid aluminium construction, isolation from vibration and all outputs isolated from each other to avoid contamination from feedback from connected devices. I’m not surprised it’s so expensive.
I’m pretty sure that there is a video on this where Paul explains this exact question.
Looked it up, found it:
https://www.psaudio.com/askpaul/class-d-amps-for-regenerators/
Thanks for that. Wonder why class D amps cannot be designed with bigger power supplies like class A/B amps to deliver the required onrush of current to complex loads of power amplifiers. Not being an electrical engineer, this is totally outside my area.
Good point. Class D amplifiers are the darling in some audio circles (is that what it stands for). Regarded as a key feature of many new and forward thinking components, they are extremely well thought of.
From a layman’s point of view it’s surprising if they are not suitable for power regenerators because in such an application isn’t it true to say they only have to amplify one frequency, that being the voltage frequency.
Agreed, so we must be missing something here. If the only limitation is the capability of the power supply to meet demand at the top of the sine wave where the current is needed from a lower power factor, as Paul explains, why can’t this be fixed by design in a class D amp ?
There are multiple problems with Class D, but none quite so difficult as the requirement of its aggressive output filter. That really hampers output impedance and then requires an aggressive feedback loop to compensate, which can become unstable at high current delivery levels.
One thing to remember. Power Plants routinely deliver upwards of 70 amps of peak power. That’s a lot. There are no SMPS that can handle that requirement, so already you’re stuck with a conventional power supply. I imagine it might be able to be pulled off, but frankly, every attempt we’ve made wound up being more of an engineering challenge than it was worth.
Thanks for taking the time to respond. I figured there had to be a reason that you didn’t jump on class D for your regenerators.
Yes, thanks for the response, only just seen.
Niagara 5000. For what it’s worth… everybody’s power situation is different. I live in a suburban community on an acre of ground with underground utilities which probably helps things. My amplification equipment is all Conrad-Johnson top of the line running to Wilson speakers and a dCS DAC source.
Last year, not believing power cords made a difference, I did a personal shootout of about a dozen power cords. Including the WW and older Shunyata that I own and cords from The Cable Company and several dealers. The major brands were well represented by their top products. I settled on and now own AQ Hurricane and Tornado cords. After that I brought home an AQ Niagara 5000, put it in place of my aging Shunyata Hydra 8. Surprisingly, I could hear no difference, so back it went. My C-J ART amplifier goes directly to the 20 amp dedicated wall outlet, at C-J’s suggestion. I would like to try a PSA regenerator soon as well. They make a good case for their products. Your power situation and experience may be a bit different.
Paul. According to your article, the PSAUDIO Dectet I purchased is detrimental to the sound of my audio setup. If this is true, why do you still sell it with the assertion that it will improve the sound, often to a high degree? Are you telling me that I wasted $500.00 for an overpriced ‘surge protector’?
The Dectet Power Center is not technically a conditioner, though it does have similar elements like common mode chokes. What we did with the design of the Dectet was to use a heavy gauge wire with very few turns to build the inductors. What this allows is for nearly no increase in impedance, something welcome in an AC power center.
That said, it is not a regenerator, either. While it doesn’t raise the impedance higher, as most power conditioners and isolation transformers do, the Dectet cannot actively lower the impedance. Thus, what benefits it provides come from the high frequency cleaning and heavy gauge wire.
Paul. Thank you for the reply. I realize that for the price I paid, I cannot expect the quality of an actual Regenerator, but I feel that I did upgrade my sound system with its use. Being retired for many years, I have limited funds. If I were younger, I would probably go wild buying your wonderful products. I did buy a Sprout, which I really like, and I am an avid follower of your daily videos. Someday, I hope to visit, and experience the sound of your incredible music rooms.
No worries. The Dectet Power Center does make an improvement, an audible one, just not in the way a regenerator does. You did well.
I use the Dectet at every audio show we go to, and this in addition to the regenerators.