First separation
Join Our Community Subscribe to Paul's PostsHigh-end audio is more separates than completes. You don’t see many all-in-one receivers connected to high-end speakers.
It’s not that it’s technically impossible to build a great sounding receiver. Plenty of companies from PS Audio to McIntosh to Devialet have.
Yet always a collection of their separate counterparts outperforms the all-in-one. Why?
One could easily argue the shared power supplies don’t help, nor the shared AC cord. Still others might argue the close proximity of noisy circuits within the same chassis, or the need to bring the piece in at a reasonable price.
Yet, speculation aside, I would venture to suggest it is probably not possible to put a digital source next to an analog output without significant compromise. That it is proximity and the inverse-square law that stands between success and failure.
Sometimes we just have to separate things in order to maximize their potential.
I am pretty sure that the TacT Millenium integrated digital amp was the most convincing design concept for an integrated amp. It offers digital inputs only and its output is digital (PWM) or quasi- analog (as multiple DSD is. For adding a nostalgic analog source just add an AD-converter. But similar to the laser turntable it’s a design concept which minimizes the business cases of manufacturers and dealers not allowing playing around with components rolling and endless tweaking by cable/interconnect exchanges, etc.. And the concept of separates allows the marketing claim of having build cost-no-object modules in separate expensive housings with most expensive power supplies in additional external housings. But they do not mention that there is now the problem of optimizing the external cabling and connectors (RCA a most cheap and poor solution) and the problem of multiple noise generating power supplies cross-contaminating everything. Active wireless (and battery) driven loudspeakers of today show how far integration is possible. But traditional manufacturer of highend equipment might lose credibility when following a similar approach. Thus only a newcomer (Devialet) could go this path – as Tesla did for automobiles. 🙂 Tesla is said to have a technological lead of six years concerning control and battery technology!
Yes!
That means at least 13 ‘boxes’, including the loudspeakers & the subwoofers, spread all over my listening room floor & all connected up with 100 metres of wire.
Who gives a rat’s arse, as long as it sounds fabulous!
‘sclaningham’ is just gonna love that….13 boxes all over the listening room.
I’d be very interested to find out what her husband has to say on this topic 😉
Steven,
Australia can not bat…at all.
I love a test series that see-saw’s violently.
Nothing like a bit of sea sickness to add to the thrill of it.
You forgot to count the boxes for the active loudspeaker featuring an external active crossover and external amps for each driver protected from loudspeakers cabinet vibrations by putting them into shielded and anti-vibration boxes. 🙂 Not to mention mains power filters or regenerators for each active component! Hey, and what about active cables with dedicated power supplies?
ps,
Hmmm…methinks that we’re gonna need a bigger room.
FatRat – if only I could stay awake long enough to watch such brilliant cricket. Two of the best bowling line-ups in decades on a helpful pitch. Labuschagne said a long prayer on the boundary before he came in, and well he might.
Mr Fruit Bat,
I read this to him. He laughed. He moaned about all the wasted money in boxes and wires in storage. He loves the small RME and Nord amps. However, he still fusses about the bass nulls and peaks and wants to “decorate” the room for us. Fat chance, or maybe some corner stuff as long as it’s not very visible.
He’d rather have just a server to speakers. Those blessed D&D’s!
By the way, he gifted me all of Beethoven’s Sonatas by Ivo Pogorelich. Good man my hubby.
Igor Levit, correction. 9 CDs!
One thousand times more money is wasted on throwing out perfectly good food on this planet than is “wasted” on high-end audio equipment.
Priorities sclaningham!
Yes, he IS a good husband…I can imagine that he has a much to moan about 😉
Non sequitur, Mr Fruit Bat.
Let me be more precise. Based on the technology and the available data, it is likely that it will be better. As every room is different, it is possible that under certain conditions, these speakers may not perform as best as they can.
Women tend to be more guarded even about things that they are very prepared while men tend to behave very confidently even on subjects they know nothing about.
Technically, my answer is correct .
Let me give you another example. The COVID vaccine is very likely to prevent the person vaccinated from getting sick, but not definitely. Does your misogynistic brain understand?
sclaningham,
Your man-hating brain obviously doesn’t, & that was my point…thank you for the confirmation.
My husband doesn’t feel this way. Maybe you are not even aware of who you are. He who knows not and knows not he knows not is a fool. Shun him.
sclaningham,
You came to this platform a few months ago & immediately started slagging off at almost everyone here, & you state in your 7:22pm reply that I am “a very angry man” when it is you who came here with the your anger right from the get-go…oh the irony.
In the words of Roger Waters, sclaningham “you’re very nearly a laugh, but you’re really a cry”
All that you do here is parrot what your “husband” (if he even exists) has to say about audio; you seem to have no intelligent thoughts of your own on the subject…none!
Maybe that’s why I’m OK with my AVC, as I don’t use analogue inputs as it has hi res streaming within it for radio etc and no analogue inputs used. SACD and other audio inputs are via high bandwidth HDMI with the SACD transport having its audio clock sent from the AVC.
While a multichannel pre/main amp, when configured in pure stereo mode it sounds great to me (even compared to some real high end systems, albeit mostly in demo rooms) with my full(ish) range tower speakers…
… so maybe high end seems to be also relative to what sources you use?
While this article sounds fine in theory, my McIntosh c2600 preamp has six tubes (two in MM phono stage, two in MC and two in the line stage. It also has a built-in dac that will do high resolution DSD, a headphone amp and remote capabilities.
With all this in one component, one might expect noise issues, but alas it is dead silent as a result of smart chassis design and layout.
In a related observation, I think many have commented that the best dacs have very robust, well regulated power supplies and high quality analog output stages. Running six tubes, I have no doubt the power supply in the c2600 is more than up to the task, and just love that tubed analog stage.
Of all the integrated amps I’ve owned, I’ve yet to find one that WASN’T dead silent.
Me too!
But I think this just proves that the dead silent we hear from almost any gear has little to do with other aspects of sound quality differences which are audible (also between integrateds and separates)
Honestly, this is a bit like the Chief Engineer of Chrysler telling the the Chief Engineer of Tesla he doesn’t know how to make a car because he hasn’t worked out where to put the fuel tank.
Tell the customer you only need one power cable, no need for mains regeneration, no analogue or digital inter-connects, ultra-low power consumption, dramatically reduced space consumption, 0% failure rate, fully enclosed for EM/RF isolation and lightweight with global door-to-door upgrading. Then you get full app control, auto source detection, built-in speaker correction (where servo control failed) and built-in room correction. It also happens to be a lot cheaper because of the manufacturing technology, modular and internally upgradeable without having to trade in and replace (also dramatically cheaper), the amount of power is effectively unlimited and you can have one stereo unit or up to 8 mono units programmed to drive one pair stereo speakers.
Plus it sounds great and your family will love it.
The real problem with these types of units, and mine in particular, which Paul does not mention, is that the family enjoy using it so much I struggle to get time to use it myself.
Suggesting digital systems can’t solve analogue problems is a bit like saying that when the Martians land they won’t be able to take over the world because they are too big to get through the door at McDonalds.
A Mac mini plus D&Ds is much cheaper than all this boxes and wires. And likely much better sound quality in your room.
“likely”…likely what?
Which means you haven’t listened to it.
“Likely” is such a wishy-washy adjective…it means nothing really.
“…better sound quality in your room.”…better than what?
A 1970’s transistor radio?
Oh yes, I’d agree with that.
But since you haven’t qualified your statement, it’s just more wishy-washy pulp fiction.
Are you talking to me? Doesn’t look that way. Go rant somewhere else. You are a very angry man.
sclaningham,
Well I tagged your reply, so that should’ve been a clue for you.
Oh, that’s right…you’re not very intelligent, when it comes to audio, since all of your audio knowledge seems to come from your “husband”.
You can’t even tell a ‘rant’ from a series of questions. Could you be any more ignorant??
I know about music and science, subjects that escape you.
sclaningham,
That my be true…in your mind.
However, on this site, you appear clueless.
I often wondered what a modern version of the old wooden cased Stereo Radiogram would perform like using modern technology. No visible wires except the mains cable and perhaps acceptable as a piece of furniture.
Remember the glory days of console stereos! I’d like to take up woodworking. I think audiophilia and woodworking would make a wonderful combination of hobbies for retirement. Custom walnut cases for modern day components. And eventually make my own speaker cabinets. Ugh better get back to work now – good tools aren’t cheap!
Interesting topic. The simplicity and lack of interconnects appeals to me economically. But as a hobbyist who enjoys the mixing and matching and tinkering – separates are way more fun!
I think the all-in-one clothes washer & dryer is brilliant. But in the kitchen, I want my stove and oven separate. And in the bathroom, I insist on my toilet being separate from my sink and shower. We don’t want any “inverse” laws of physics in our plumbing! 😉
djB-O-B,
Damn!
Does that mean that I should stop peeing in the sink??
What you say seems to be a fact. Maybe the most obvious fact of design topology generally, even if we all would love to get rid of the need of separates for max sound quality.
The more we separate (pre/amps, psu’s from cirquits, channels, digital/analog, streamer/DAC) , the better it gets it seems. Every now and then someone declares this rule as not relevant anymore, but then it stays, just as kind of plain physics…and it seems it not only stays because manufacturers might prefer to sell more boxes. In the contrary many manufacturers try to sell “it doesn’t matter” against better knowledge, others sell it as what is it…a compromise.
Again, this seems very old-fashioned conventional thinking. Linn abandoned this approach to Hifi 15 years ago and went exclusively for streaming and digital. They are not an insubstantial company (see below). They have never found any need to separate streamer and DAC and their very expensive top high-end Klimax Exakt system with full DSP etc, comprises one small external box and large active full-range speakers.
What is happening in audio is exactly the same as has happened with cameras. Mobile phone cameras got steadily better, obliterated the small compact camera market and has eaten into the lower end of the system camera market. Professional photographers have been using mobile phones for some years now.
20 year ago there was a massive market for audio stacks up to say $5,000. Integrated systems from the likes of AVM, Hegel and Devialet (and 2-box solutions like Marantz, NAD, Linn and Naim) have pushed up the threshold where the benefit from separates only kicks much higher, probably now well in excess of a $100,000 system price.
These and other companies have developed in-house their own original ways of making high-end integrated digital systems. PS Audio’s DAC separates were not developed in-house and they have yet to produce a streamer, and no-one knows anything about the most important element, the Octave operating and control software.
(Linn’s sales per last accounts were some $24 million, all through dealers, so perhaps around $35-$40 million retail/direct. Don’t know how that compares to PSA. Also spent over $4 million on R&D, a lot more than the $1 million Paul mentioned the other day.)
I don’t doubt that companies like Linn grew by aiming for the high quality „integrated“, „convenience“ market and away from an ultimate high end approach. At least that’s what they did in my understanding.
What they offer does have a demand, that’s unquestioned and probably has a higher demand than ultimate high end for the buck. To be honest I even see PSA moving towards this direction (with some show case prestige products done in parallel) at a certain time of change….rather earlier than others of today’s high end world…and I personally already see signs of this.
But there’s the difference…the possibly more successful and demanded is not the better…it almost never was.
“the possibly more successful and demanded is not the better”
So true. You only have to look at the best selling newspapers, certainly here in the U.K.
Quite the opposite. They aimed to make the best streaming/DAc products possible. Their first steaming product, the Klimax DS, referred to as a “Network D/A processor” as it only had an ethernet input and an analogue output. It cost $20,000 when reviewed by Stereophile in 2008 and got a phenomenal review. It was way ahead of the game. It is still one of the best streaming DACs on the market, current price $23,000.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/linn-klimax-ds-network-da-processor-page-2
The Klimax Exakt integrated speaker system, one small box and active speakers, is $80,000.
The integration makes possible their DSP that they call their Sound Optimisation system. Difficult to do that with loads of boxes and wires.
You can’t compare to PS Audio as PSA don’t make any of this tech, but it is certainly more expensive and if you wanted better you’d probably be looking at a separates system at the Wilson/Focal + dCS level.
Paul keeps posting about his streamer and speakers, meantime, many others have made his posts obsolete.
I think you’re right with Linn‘s approach, especially in the streamer market and I also see that they play in a very high end price region and certainly sound great on a high level.
I just think if we finally talk about a 150-200k Linn setup (or lower ranged ones), you can do better (in terms of a magic music experience) for a smaller amount already elsewhere than on a big Wilson/DCS level.
I think bigger companies with a bigger output can’t have the same focus on ultimate quality as rather boutique ones. An example even Paul mentioned for PSA is hand wired vs. printed circuit boards. It’s quite common wisdom that custom wired sounds better, but as soon as production numbers increase it’s not realizable anymore from a manufacturing/economic point of view. Several other examples come into mind like the use of tubes, other parts which might be better but not as available in large numbers or as reliably. Developers not focused as much on a certain product due to the large range of products etc.
E.g. you might find 10 developers at Linn focused on a product which elsewhere mainly a Paravincini, Ted Smith, Nelson Pass or BHK designs, but 10 employees instead of 1 owner/genius isn’t usually better in terms of ultimate sound quality and tricked out design I’d say.
It’s not by accident that those bigger companies mostly derived from an individual genius’es approach and reputation and then settled well in the market, but mostly lost the super innovative element and instead just kept a good market position together with others while aiming for a different clientele than before.
Who says it’s common wisdom that custom wired sounds best? People who custom wire?
Few will argue that dCS make the world’s best DACs, built by robots followed by incredibly rigorous quality control (they had to design their own test equipment as nothing suitable existed). Devialet do the same and in 10 years I’ve only ever heard of one failure, which was due to a third party IEC power socket overheating. Meanwhile the PSA forum regularly has people complaining of units arriving DOA or failing.
PSA best received recent product, the Stellar Phono, looks to me like a printed PCB, probably made externally.
Successful companies develop core technologies, build it into a range of products, develop it up and drip it down. Auralic is a great example. Sure you need a genius or two, but you also need a strategy, investment and teamwork.
It is equally if more fruitful to invent something, patent it and license it or sell it OEM, like Bruno Putzeys did with Hypex (nCore power) and now Purifi. He also made products branded Mola Mola. Purifi is team of geniuses and I expect them to take over the world very quickly.
Without dropping names again, I try to say it more generalistically:
IMO you will find many who use PCB for economic reasons but say custom wired (assumed same circuit and both possible) would sound better.
You will find no one doing custom wiring and saying PCB would sound better.
You will find no one doing custom wiring for any other reason than sound quality difference.
You will find few who use PCB and honestly reason its use for sound quality matters.
You and my husband have the same admiration for Putzey.
Because he’s obviously a genius engineer with a great business sense (or business supporting team) who has developed amplifier and power supply modules that probably make many in the audio industry green with envy.
Here’s another genius you’ve probably not heard of, but I put him on the Putzeys level.
https://www.focal.com/en/simon-matthews-designer
I’ll tell him to read this.
To clarify, the speakers we have were built by him. The woofers and midranges are from Focal. The tweeter is a “Raven” (don’t ask me for details). It was all designed by the people that used to deal with Focal speakers and developed the Raven (Not the boxes). He built and finished the boxes to their specs. He tells me it took him one full year to finish them.
It was an issue when we got together. I said the dog was fine to come, but those speakers? Now I love them. (Even if they are huge monstrosities).
Steven, my husband tells me that it is highly likely that Simon Matthews is the brother of a friend of his. Apparently, if it is who he thinks it is, my husband was best man at his wedding (not Simon’s, his brother Mark). He met Simon when he came to the wedding and when he went to see the RWC in 1999 in Paddington.
He is checking.
Just heard from him. He does know Simon, it is Mark’s brother. Small world!
I’m confused. Who designed your speakers? They are fully bespoke? I came across Simon Matthews as I was wondering who the genius was behind Naim Uniti, reinventing a brand and retaining the tradition at the same time. There is also a link I’d rather not mention.
p.s. I heard Igor Levit play all the Beethoven sonatas live, plus quite a bit of Bach, Busoni and Shostakovich. He’s only a little skinny chap, but can be spectacularly violent at the keyboard. His individual approach is mostly appreciated by audiences here, only the occasional fight.
Simon is a designer of “appearances” of equipment. He is not an electronics designer or creator like Putzey. My husband tells me Simon’s career was about making them look pretty. Different leagues.
The speakers are “bespoke” using Focal divers and a Raven tweeter.
I did some experimentation a while back and concluded that short speaker cables sounded noticeably better than long runs, even more so than the quality differences. Therefore, I place mono amps near my speakers and avoid integrated solutions.
Jim, I’m intrigued to know the distances involved between long and short. I was recently advised that you can definitely tell a difference once you get over 2 metres/6 feet.
Rich,
I agree with Jim.
For the last 30 years I’ve set-up my audio rig so that nothing is over 2.2 metres…even since I’ve gone back to an integrated from monoblocs.
Currently, my interconnects are the standard 1m in length & the loudspeaker wires are 1.8m, with the loudspeakers 2.2m apart & my electronics are on the floor, in between, on vibration absorbing boards.
I realize that not everyone can take over their living rooms with their audio rig placement, however for those of us who can… 🙂
Think of all of the functions a high end smart phone can perform. The mind boggles. In addition to all of the things you think of, a list as long as your arm there are many it can do you probably never considered. For example in my now obsolete phone it’s a radiation meter, a light meter, a sound meter, a signal generator, a spirit level, a magnetometer, it measures the strength of radio frequency fields, and it beats me at chess. As time goes on they will become even more powerful. All in the palm of my hand powered by a battery the size of a matchbook. And yes it has a D/A converter although you may not like it and it has an A/D converter as well. It also performs DSP functions. It can see in the dark. If I hold it up to the sky it will show me a star map telling me what stars I’m looking at. The newest models can store one terabyte of memory. So far it can’t make a cup of coffee yet.
How about the toast?
Light, medium or dark??
Strong. Puts hair on your chest. Are you in Australia? I just saw the saddest thing about how men are being turned into women in Australia and the women are ruling over men. It’s happening here too but Australia and Sweden I think are in the lead.
Yes, I’m in Australia.
What you saw may well be happening, but not in my household.
My wife & I bring our individual strengths to our relationship & it works well for the two of us…otherwise it wouldn’t have lasted this long.
With the increase in domestic violence in Australia since the March 2020 CoViD lockdowns (now relaxed) & the fact that on average one woman every week (52 +/- per year) is killed by a partner or ex-partner I find it hard to believe that “the women are ruling over men” here in Australia.
Hey, what’s happening with that ‘Three Gorges Dam’ in China?
Has it collapsed yet?
It’s been over 6 months.
Personally I think that it’s BS, otherwise it would’ve surely disintegrated by now.
I followed everything about the Three Gorges Dam during the rainy season. It has not collapsed but it appears to have been damaged. Evidently the concrete is showing signs of failure with the CCP admitting that several 10 meter long cracks have opened up. How extensive the damage done by the flood this year has been is speculative because the CCP closely guards all negative information and because internal failures may not be easily detectable. It appears to some that silt is passing under the dam which is only a gravity dam suggesting failure at the bottom. Whether or not the dam can be partially or fully repaired is also speculative.
The Chinese are not very good at concrete. Their contractors are corrupt and cut lots of corners resulting in premature failure. According to some reports from India the artificial islands the Chinese built in the South China Sea are sinking due to concrete failure. Here’s an example of Chinese masonry failure and why their buildings are referred to even by Chinese as tofu.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCmC9Un8Vy8
Sm,
Thank you for your detailed reply Mark.
I appreciate it.
Ironic that it is posted under Paul’s heading of
‘First separation’
Mark Levinson (the brand) does an excellent job. They understand what most people (including audiophiles) want nowadays.
They offer integrated amps, with built-in high quality DAC, with or without mm/mc input.
Pre-amps with or without DAC, with or without mm/mc input.
Streaming SACD-players, stereo and mono power amps.
All high-end level.
And from personal experience I can say it works flawlessly. No noise, no hum whatsoever.
For the past 22 years I have been listening to vintage McIntosh separates. The C28 pre and the MC2105 power amp, with a pair of unknown speakers, made by a very skilled cabinet-maker, audiophile friend of mine. I decided to downsize and purchased the Anthem STR integrated, which takes up less space and I can actually lift, since it is half the weight of the 80lbs of 2105. This has only been since Covid hit in March here in Canada, so I had to wait for it to be made, as there were orders ahead of mine. Now that I have it setup, I can honestly say that it sounds better or clearer to my 70 year old ears, than the McIntosh gear did. It is not better or worse but different, so now I’m thinking and reading about new speakers. Although, we’re in our 2nd lockdown and all stores are closed for 28 days except for online/curbside pickup. In the meantime, I’m quite satisfied just rediscovering all my CDs and records played through my new amp. Now I have heard my whole life, about how separates are better than an integrated and I believed it was true as well, which is why I went from an integrated to separates so very long ago. Although, those were the days, when we didn’t have the high-tech/nano-engineering we have today, and things have come along way since…just a thought.
I really like Paul’s post and can relate to it. I’m actually grateful to have separate and specific functioning equipment to make up a unique system synergy. Not a fan of the “All in one” concept. It diminishes our hobby a bit by not exploring and doing research on other Audio companies.
I’m in favor of separates and Hi-Fi accessories from various companies.
separates are a quest and a labour of love and usually at the end of the day it sounds better than “all in ones.”
In the world of audio, it comes down to what will the market will bear, what the manufacturer does with their product concerning their target consumer. There is no magic formula.
Unless you’ve experienced some of the High End grounding schemes like those from CAD, Nordost, or Synergistic Research, among others, you might not discover that your “dead silent” gear still has a faint heartbeat.
The term “receiver” is not the same as what we know as an “all-in-one”. Receivers typically required ancilliary sources, aside from an AM or FM tuner, not to forget speakers. Even the “all-in-one” is really an “almost-all-in-one” if it requires additional sources/and/or speakers. True “all-in-ones” were commonly called “Boom-Boxes”.
Slowly becoming ‘Boomer-Boxes’ 😉
What if there is no digital source next to an analogue output ? will the all in one sound as good as separates ? It does not seem so. Obviously there are other factors which give separates their superiority. All the points which the the post mentions as possibilities are in reality the reason for the superiority of separates. Take for example the superiority of mono blocks over stereo amps all else being equal. Here I believe the complete separation of both channels is the reason. No interaction between channels. As for a common power cord. I was running two P10s off a top of the line PS Audio duplex on a dedicated line with two power cords of course. All seemed well. The sound was quite good. One day just for the heck of it I connected one of the P10s to another ordinary outlet. I was literally floored by the improvement in every aspect of the sound. The sound became totally effortless. The sound stage expanded in all directions. Very significant improvement in separation and transparency. Force and slam were just too good. All by using different outlets. Never hesitate to experiment. Regards.
This makes me wonder about the total current available to your system. If your dedicated line is 20 amps, plugging the other P10 into a wall outlet would give you an additional 15 amps, which could make for a significant difference, depending on your rig. I run a 30A dedicated line, normally, though sometimes I switch to a 20A dedicated line, and other times I run some gear off one dedicated line and other gear off the other–say to separate analog from digital gear or test out a foolish hypothesis. You never know what you will discover unless you check it out. Obviously, there are other variables in your set up that might explain your findings. Thanks for sharing your experience, Oliver.
Happy New Year, Stay safe.