Dynamic surprise
Join Our Community Subscribe to Paul's PostsThe first time I listened to a Sheffield Labs direct to disc recording I experienced a dynamic surprise. A kick drum that seemed to come out of nowhere to pound my chest. Oh my gosh that was an amazing experience, one that’s stayed with me all these many decades.
Modern recordings seem to have forgotten the joy of dynamic surprises. Instead, many producers want constant loudness and drama, forgetting (or maybe not being aware of) the sheer delight rapid changes in dynamics can bring.
Very few recordings in my stable of treasures have those dynamic surprises, something we fully intend to change as we produce music.
If you have a few favorite recordings with dynamic surprises, please do share it with us.
There’s always an appetite for the unexpected.
What about: Lalo Schifrin: Jazz meets the Symphony?
David Gray White ladder track 3 SERIOUS bass!
I don’t think there is much if ANYTHING that can top Telarc’s bag of dynamic tricks. Cannons, musket fire, gun shots and thunder! And these recordings have been around for 40 years now !!
I used the Telarc 1812 to purposely blow up a few drivers over the years, though the synthesizers on “Ascent” from Time Warp were MUCH more insidious! 🙂
Hello Bill. Yes, that recording is always a speaker killer if one is not cautious with the ‘GO’ knob (O: I recently bought the limited pressing LP RE-release of the Telarc 1812. WOW, it is a very cool box type package with pictures from the cannon fire session that you NEVER got to see on the CD. The re-mastered to new vinyl was with many of the Telarc ‘guard’ involved.
Now, I have found the same problem that the original vinyl release was causing back in the late 70ies. The cannon fire will cause my Rega P6 with the Exact 2 cart to jump out of the groove on the very LAST cannon blast every time. I am tracking at 1.75 g.
My vintage Dual 506 with the factory Ortofon at the same tracking weight can’t play a single one of them, bounces all over the place – too funny (O:
Ok, just an added two cents.
……Gary
Haydn’s Surprise Symphony.
A pure example.
My tip to you for some GREAT dynamics is Mike Oldfield’s Amarok in the HDCD-version.
Hi Paul,
Having played drums in my youth, I absolutely love dynamic recordings. Charly Antolini did some good ones, but the latest, that absolutely hit me was Track 13 (Improvisation by Patrice Heral) of Godard’s “Le Concert Des Parfums”. The CD has been recorded in an old abbey using a pure stereo mic. Dynamics and room depth are absolutely stunning.
Best, Klaus
Aloha Paul et al – give a listen to the Tsuyoshi Yamamoto Trio. To my ear some of the best recorded dynamics I’ve be heard – especially piano!
https://tidal.com/track/45581447
Thad (Kailua Kona, HI)
Led Zeppelin Dyer Maker off Houses off the Holy album. Great Drums by John Bonham. Also Pink Floyd Comfortably Numb bass off the Wall album.
What comes handy is that Roon calculates dynamic range of tracks in your local library.
In the Tracks view you can then sort by it.
Interesting findings: Obviously some tracks from ripped Test-Tone-CDs have the widest ranges, then comes mostly classical music, but when looking at non-classical music, Tea for the Tillerman (Cat Stevens), Roberta (Flim & the BB’s), Wish you were here (Pink Floyd), Rudy (Supertramp), No Quarter (Led Zepplin) and Jimbo (Eric Burdon & War) show amazing dynamics.
What about Phil Collins “In The Air Tonight” on the Album “Face Value”.
It’s not really that big a dynamic jump.
Fake dynamics – gated drums/reverb. They use a “noise gate” studio device that jumps to zero output when the level falls below the “threshold” knob setting.
Oh, I know that Flim and the BB’s track you speak of. It was all the rage at the audio dealerships back in the 80ies when it was released. WOW, always impressed me (O:
The opening bars of Biffy Clyro’s ‘Living Is A Problem Because Everything Dies’
Listen to some EDM. In particular Seven Lions and Illenium.
In The Middle Somewhat Elevated, by Thom Willems for Bejart at the Paris Ballet. It’s on Qobuz. Designed to shock, as was the expolsive lighting. Almost gave me a heart attack first time I saw it.
P.s. is this an admission by Paul that you don’t need DSD for dynamic range, you can get it off vinyl.
Some that spring to my mind are, in no particular order, as follows.
o “Orbits” from Ludovico Einaudi’s “In a Time Lapse” but better experienced playing the previous track “Brothers” first because it segues into “Orbits”
o “Why So Serious?” from Hans Zimmer’s soundtrack to “The Dark Knight”
o “Stephen Bonnet Theme” from Bear McCreary’s soundtrack to “Outlander: Season 4”
o “Wilderness Is A Spell” from Nigel Westlake’s soundtrack to “The Edge”
The taste for a certain thing (wine, music, etc.) is intrinsically subjective, what someone else likes may not have much meaning for me and vice versa.
If we respect the free will of each one, we should not make veiled suggestions if we practice the pragmatism contained in the previous paragraph.
Imagine if ALL subscribers to this space made a list with musical themes of their choice, the result would be very boring, do you think someone would abide by the entire list?
I recall a dynamic moment when my local audio dealer, back in the early 80s (maybe late 70s) had invited David Wilson and a subset of past customers to hear a demo of the latest Wilson speaker. He put in a flamenco recording and I could feel the floor boards resonate on the recording with stunning clarity and realism. It made me realize, even back then, that a higher level of realism was possible than I thought could be reproduced in an audio playback system.
I have a similar experience from a demo a year ago: It was (big) hotel room in Munich, about 30 people attended a demo of various active speakers from B&M.
Attached was a set of BM Line 15 (http://www.backesmueller.de/en/products/line-serie/bm-line-15.html) and this flamenco song started: Zapateado (Artist: Pepe Romero, Album: Flamenco).
I was sitting way back, no optimal position at all. But the imaging and realness was something I never heard before (and after): the shoe tapping sound was so clear and fast and dynamic and direct that you could see and smell the wooden floor (there was non, just the usual hotel carpet) – and you could follow the dancer through the room, as he moved from one side to the other and back and forth. He was there with us in that room. You could feel the heat of that day when they recorded the session…
Coming home I immediately streamed that track on my system. Nope. Nada. Did not recreate. With various upgrades to my system I’m slowly getting closer, but (I guess) the most important aspect is still missing and I will never be able to create that at home: the room.
Correlations of how reverberance of the recorded room and the listening room add up can be calculated. But it’s a variable that is almost impossible to control.
Too bad those BM speakers aren’t sold in the U.S. Be fun to check them out.
Grateful Dead – The Closing of Winterland has a flashpot set off on stage around 15 minutes into Rhythm Devils that’s jolting if you’re not prepared.
If you have a subwoofer, “No Time for Caution” from the “Interstellar” soundtrack.
Not really dynamics so much as a pipe organ going really low and an orchestral crescendo at the end.
It seems modern pop/country/rock music recording are one of the areas that has greatly degraded in quality as technology should have improved. This was readily apparent to me watching the Netflix show Umbrella Academy. (I am listening on full PS electronics feeding Maggy speakers). The show features pop songs from the early 60s to today. The old recording sound vastly more natural and musical than the new songs, the best example is Mel Torme’s Coming Home which had amazing clarity and imaging, yet this song was recorded in 1962. While the songs recorded in the past 5 years were flat, compressed, lifeless, dirty and generally unmusical sounding. It is for this reason I completely stopped buying or following modern pop/country/rock music. Its a shame, we have the best playback equipment ever made, yet garbage for source material.
I think it was acuvox yesterday that mentioned the Royer R122 microphone. Theres a microphone that can capture dynamics, sometimes overloading the input of mic pre’s if you’re not careful. I’d be interested in dynamic recordings captured by that microphone.
It has to start with musicians that can play with dynamics. Outside of the classical world, that’s a rarity.
That’s easy, Reference Recordings, Mickey Hart’s…“Dafos”. Specifically the track, Gates of Dafos.
Another dynamic surprise is Telarc’s “Good Vibrations” on their Papa Doo Run Run LP. Just the LP, the CD is actually not mastered as dynamically, intentionally.
This may be of interest to some of you.
https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/hit-factors
My interest in dynamics is different.
Surprises which knock you out of the chair, like cannon shots, close mic’ed drum hits, emphasized timpanis in some symphony recordings are nice occasionally, but those shock and show effects are not what makes exciting dynamics in music for me.
For me it’s the grade of attack of instrument’s or voice‘s medium-dynamic variations which fascinate in a larger context than a show effect, especially when combined with great rhythm & pace.
Try this:
Donald Vega /Spiritual Nature
Track: You never tell me anything
Thanks to all for this thread and the useful tips on dynamic recordings.
I just realized that I had the good fortune to see and hear Donald Vega in concert with Ron Carter and Anthony Wilson as the Golden Striker Trio back in 2014. And thanks to your tip I am now finding him as a headline artist on Tidal.
I am truly enjoying the Spiritual Nature album on my KEF LS50/MartinLogan Dynamo/Creek Evolution 2/Cambridge Audio/Oppo BDP-105 system. This recording has amazing dynamics and each instrument is heard clearly filling the room as if the guys were playing right here.
And the music really swings, too!
Yes, it’s really a good one. I bet the dynamic range of this album is good but not breathtaking, but anyway it sounds very real and dynamic within the range the dynamic happens. I think it’s a good example of the essential characteristic of dynamics in music vs. shock effects of 100dB difference.
The extent to which the debate about overall dynamic range dominates this imo more essential dynamic characteristic is misleading and superficial imo.
I like that — maintaining internal dynamic range — such as I first heard with Linn Isobariks, and realized it was a “thing”. Weather Report it was but not only.
Paula Cole _this fire: tiger.
You settle in to normal pretty good pop them Whammo!! Trust me on this one Paul, I’ve stunned audio show guys with it.
D-2-D vinyl record:
Astor Piazzolla & Marcelo Nisinman – Chamberjam Europe
Incredible recording, wild dynamics and outstanding performances.
Paul,
I was listening to some older percussion recordings / remasters earlier and while looking for more came across this…
https://www.nativedsd.com/catalogue/albums/smoke-mirrors/
It has the PS Audio logo on it – so I’m just curious if there’s a connection some how.
What microphone preamp did they use?
Maybe it’s the best microphone preamp combination for recording kick drums in the world. But what about for everything else? Meh? Maybe they should make a recording of nothing but kick drums. No mixing board there, direct to disc.
Actually, Scheffield Labs was mixed multi-track, but the board output was buffered to ten or twelve lathes, and there needed to be a tech person for every two lathes or so. The main deal was the musicians had to play an entire side in real time, and flip the scores during the inter-track mutes.
Hugh Masekela – ‘Hope’ (The whole album)
Virna Sanzone – ‘Virna Sanzone’ (The whole album) …not commercially available
‘Thirtysomething’ Title track (Track 1) Geffen Records.
I have yet to hear anything that comes close to the cannons in Telarc’s ‘1812 Overture’ for the ultimate in recorded dynamics.
For some ‘modern’ dynamic bass I can’t go much past Nightclub’s – ‘Dear Enemy’…track 4 from their ‘Requiem For Romance’ album.
Many of the Windham Hill recordings from the 80s had outstanding dynamics. Most folks are familiar with Michael Hedges “Arial Boundaries,” but there are many others from that label that are quite stunning. They used to release annual samplers that contained some really interesting selections from their artists.
+1 on the Windham Hill samplers and artist albums, hoeffel. Great music and very good recordings. i still listen to them on vinyl and CD.
There seem to be two reasons for this. The type of popular music and the type of equipment used for listening i.e. ear buds and smartphones with very limited dynamic range and frequency range. By increasing the midrange everything is equally loud and since most of the music lies in the midrange people are happy. Who cares about extended highs or thundering bass ear buds can’t produce them anyway. As for the type of music quite a bit of it is amplified anyway. Dynamics don’t matter. Non audiophile recordings from the pre digital era have a lot of dynamic contrasts. Drums can hit one with force. Highs can be beautiful to listen to and the midrange is full with body and present. But this is on vinyl. The practice of every part of the audio spectrum being equally loud became a fashion with the advent of digital. Probably out of necessity. Early digital sound was quite compromised and jacking up the midrange made it more listenable. Regards.
Two by Count Basie from the later Pablo days.
“Bootie’s Blues” (should say “Booty’s Blues” since it features Booty Woods on trombone) from the “On the Road” CD/LP.
It has a double dynamic surprise early on. The drum whack and then the utter silence until the crowd reacts.
https://spoti.fi/32TQbLI
Historical note. This track was used at the Sony/Philips press conference at the Plaza in NYC which officially introduced the CD to the world.
“Moten Swing” from the “Me and You” date.
https://spoti.fi/3j75s1D
Perfect. Thanks. Love this thread 🙂
TELARC “Chiller” comes with a warning that Track 1 “Opening Sequence” contains the highest level sound effects that TELARC has recorded to date. Every time I play it I wonder how my speakers and my eardrums survived the assault. For more pleasant listening, I find that John Williams’ movie scores are rich with dynamic surprises.
The orchestral piece with the greatest dynamics I’ve ever heard is the Shostakovich Symphony #15. Faithfully recorded and presented will challenge even the best recording equipment and engineers. Look for a digital copy on your favorite label. The dynamic range of this piece is far beyond what vinyl can do. Really.
Dynamic suprises are fine but it only works once for you on that particular recording, after that you are just listening again in expectation.
I much prefer the slow build up of an orchestra rising to a crescendo by playing to their recommended ‘utmost’ (i.e. flat out) like during the glimpse of God in Elgar’s Dream of Gerontius – that to me is just as thrilling every time.
I’m sure you’ve never heard the Shostakovich 15 live, otherwise you wouldn’t have said this. It’s a piece with passages that consist of a single flute or oboe, played pianissimo, as well as the full orchestra at fortissimo. That’s dynamic range, not necessarily cannon shots.
But then, you haven’t heard this piece of music live, have you?
Is there a recording of the Elgar that you recommend?
Of my many Elgar favourites, the one I particularly fall back on is the Decca SXL6848 vinyl. LPO conducted by Solti recorded in the Kingsway Hall by Kenneth Wilkinson. Cockaign Op40, Military marches, Pomp & Circumstance etc.
One of my often loud played classical recordings. Here I must agree with Ted, that you have to play Telarc recordings loud. They are not very open sounding, but still pleasant played loud in this case. But I think not the most difficult to play on vinyl. Some Wagner inner grooves with fortissimo voice or a dynamic piano there might be even more challenging, depending on the quality of the tonearm and the adjustment curve 😉
You can check this annotated list of recordings by dynamic range:
http://dr.loudness-war.info
When we see that some Miles bootlegs have a quite high DR, we know how little this tells about sound quality.
There’s a more recent band from the 90’s through the early 2000’s called Morphine who’s albums always surprised me in how dynamic they were. Their recordings all sound phenomenal. Their instrumentation was somewhat different in that they were made up of a dummer, a tenor sax (he’d actually play 2 saxes at times live), and a 2 string slide bass / vocalist. The bass player and vocalist, Mark Sandman (yes, his real name) sadly passed away of a heart attack onstage in Italy. They were from Boston, and being from the Boston area, I was extremely fortunate to have seen them perform live many times before the very unfortunate and untimely death of Mark.
Their album, “Like Swimming” is not only my favorite of theirs, but it also moves through beautiful dynamics and songwriting in a seemingly effortless and almost spiritual manner. It’s a true modern masterpiece to me at least.
My vote goes to Saeglopur by Sigur Ros.
Salonen/Los Angeles Philharmonic: Stravinsky – Le Sacre du Printemps (almost too dynamic)
It’s on DG which surprises me.
Oh OH – I KNOW this one….
I gotta go with Flim & the BBs’ Funhouse. ( And I’m an old Prog Rock, Rock & Hair metal guy…)
(Tricycle, Over and Out & Telegram [From a Back Seat Driver] come awfully close). Love those guys.
There’s one particular ‘door slamming’ drum strike sound in Funhouse – following the train whistle sound that just blows right through your body (on my Magnepans, M1200s (thanks Paul!) & Sub anyways). It’s certainly a goosebump inducing noise… For me AND the neighbors…..
Love to hear those 4 tracks in the IRS room……. it might help me with my over-use of parentheses……. (probably (not))
PS – this comment list makes a great source of material I’m itching to seek out & sample next – thanks folks!
“Everybody’s got SOMETHING that they spend WAY too much money on that makes everybody else say: “Pfffft – You’re an IDIOT….!”
These comments also make for a great list of source material I’m itching to check out – thanks folk!
Star Tracks – Yuri Honing Trio if you like jazz – some nice surprises very high quality recording good soundstage. True Colors Reprise is a good one among the other songs.
The harder you hit your head against the constraints of loudness the more your ears are going to hurt. You cannot compensate for the compression of sound in time and space by decreasing or eliminating its compression in loudness. The real problem is dimensionally qualitative, not quantitative.
I just absotutolutely LOVE everything from Telarc Records. If they had a recording of just dogs barking, I’d love it and buy it, because I’m sure that those barking dogs would sound awesome. Of course, I agree with all of the above mentioned recordings, many of which I have, and can attest to. I wanted to add something a little different to the mix.
My America, by Monty Alexander (SACD)
https://www.amazon.com/My-America-Monty-Alexander/dp/B00006FSR7/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1NB4WHUPB899Z&dchild=1&keywords=monty+Alexander+SACD&qid=1600807294&s=music&sprefix=monty+al%2Cpopular%2C136&sr=1-1
I have several shefield direct recording LPs, at that time expensive. Their sound was something different.
Still today I like them more the DSD 256 and other 96Khz streaming.
“The Sheffield drum record” (1981) by Jim Keltner-Ron Tutt and “San Francisco Ltd” ( 1976) by Cristal Clear Records, with Terry Garthwaite (vocal) Robert Earl Scott (drum) Philip G. Smith (tenor Sax) Both have a fantastic sound.
I have several shefield direct recording LPs, at that time expensive. Their sound was something different.
Still today I like them more the DSD 256 and other 96Khz streaming.
“The Sheffield drum record” (1981) by Jim Keltner-Ron Tutt and “San Francisco Ltd” ( 1976) by Cristal Clear Records, with Terry Garthwaite (vocal) Robert Earl Scott (drum) Philip G. Smith (tenor Sax) . Both have a fantastic sound.
Yes exactly… same with me when first listened to Sheffield Labs.
Here are a couple in my collection that I think are worth a mention.
* Lincoln Mayorga & Distinguished Friends Volume III (Sheffield Labs) also check out Vol II
* The Three (DIRECT CUTTING – East Wind – EW-10001)
Pass-A-Grill
Jim Brock Tropic Affair
RR-31
Hold onto your seat!
Recording Labels, plus
Reference Recordings
Sheffield Labs
DMP, Chesky. Telarc, GRP
Windham Hill
Blue Note
Plus Donald Fagan (Nightly), Enya, Queen, Chicago, Phantom, Cats, Acoustic Alchemy,
Al Green, Al Stewart (Year of the Cat), America, Boston, Andreas Vollenweider,
Les Mesirables, Barbra, Beatles, Blood Sweat and Tears, Bobs Diner(Cherry Coke),
Cat Stevens, Cirque Du Soleil (Alegria), Dave Koz (Lucky Man), Diana Krall,
David Arkenstone, Dionne Warwick, Earth Wind and Fire, Israel Kamakaw …
(Somewhere over the Rainbow), Jane Oliver, Jeff Buckley (Hallelujah),,,
and sorry,,, I have to stop somewhere….
How about “Private Investigations” off of Dire Straits’ Love Over Gold album? There’s great drama building throughout the song — and the last 2 minutes offers strong dynamics plus a few of the surprises you’re seeking. A great audio demo song IMO. Enjoy —
Scheffield had that immediacy that came from NO COMPRESSION so the transients were real, even more than in live concerts because of close miking. They also captured the tension of putting musicians on the spot – no fixing anything for 15 minutes straight, going from song to song with a few seconds of silence in between.
For near coincident pair, you need to go to Chesky – Badi Assad is one of my favorites, or “Kodo”. For a straight percussion recording, also check out “Drum Concerto at Dawn” on Mapleshade.
An interesting case are the recordings of Valery Gergiev. He is such a fanatic that the NCP recordings on Philips and his own Mariinsky label are CONDUCTED with less dynamics so they fit into the signal to noise ratio of living rooms without using compressers, limiters or gain riding. I have heard his Stravinsky Rites and Firebird in Carnegie Hall, and also Lyadov’s “Enchanted Lake”, which was by far the quietest massed orchestra I ever experienced. They started out below the noise floor in that revered Hall, and played a fade-in. It is hard to describe the overwhelming feeling of 45 violinists breaking the noise floor together. The live performances had roughly the dynamic range of high end sources and amplifiers, >95dB. Maybe if you listen with Beyerdynamic DT770M Pro, with the vinyl earpads and 35dB broadband noise attenuation you can get this at home. The actual music market can’t hear more than 70dB dynamic range because the Living Room is >30dBA and the speakers (especially 1″ domes) clip at 100dB or below.
Most symphonic recordings have the mics out 40 ft from the front of the orchestra, which knocks a good 15-25dB off the dynamic peaks through a combination of reverb, high frequency attenuation and phase shift with distance.
I also caution about slow transient response. Your drivers need Faraday motors for the >octave guard band: 40KHz for the tweeter, 10KHz for the midrange and 5KHz for the Woofer. If your system has a slew rate limited by voice coil inductance, you are missing 6-10dB of dynamic range. Dome tweeters also distort on fast transients (the top of the dome folds down), you really need an AMT, ribbon or a ring tweeter.
I found out 20 years ago or more that there are artifacts present in all recording and playback systems/equipment that interfere with the original dynamic contrast contained in recorded music…
most of the discoveries made during my experimenting since then have revealed some amazing results and have shown that even with the best playback /room setups there is still much of the dynamic contrast in any recording that is not correctly presented to the listener!
The work continues with many more discoveries to make and corrective methodologies to apply to the playback equipment.