Well, as far as I am concerned, it is not the comment about USB quality that troubles me the most in the review. I do not plan to make use of the USB port.
What troubles me more are these lines:
“
He found that the combination of a new Mac Mini and an RME Fireface 800 firewire DAC/ADC “... pretty much matched the PerfectWave pairing, or even bettered it somewhat - being a little cleaner and more dynamic”
“
If a $2.500 combo really matches the $6.000 PWT/PWD pairing, then i am a bit disappointed.
The point is i already feel addicted to the upcoming PWT/PWD/Bridge and my decision to buy is almost done, but I would like to be sure that I am right - or should I just stick to my Apple + Stage IV Cullen modified DLIII, which sounds quite good I must say (but which it is also the reason why I want even better).
What explanation can be given about these intregating lines of the review ?
Thanks for the answers.
Well, we have to remember he had all of a weekend to make this review and what he reviewed were early samples - not necessarily what we’re shipping. But to his point, I’ll bet his combo does indeed sound quite good. To answer your question specifically, there’s no way that a modified DLIII and a computer will come even close to the performance of the PW series. I have listened extensively to this combo and can tell you without a shadow of a doubt, the PW series is far better - even if you just get the PWD and use your MAC for the source.
One of the reasons it sounds so much better is the choice of DAC and filters we use in the PWD. These apodizing filters remove much of the nastiness inherent in CD’s and digital recordings - such as pre-echo or pre-ringing.
There’s a really good article in this month’s TAS by Robert Harley about this. In his review of the new Meridian CD player he talks a lot about how their filters - which are essentially the same as ours - revolutionize CD playback and why. Check it out.
The DLIII as well as this reviewer’s DAC don’t have the advantage of these filters and the enormous amount of work we put into the analog output stage.
I think that once he has a chance to play with the combo on an extended period of time - and listens to what we’re actually releasing, he’ll find out what nearly all our beta testers have found out: that this combo is about as good as it gets, period.
“However, results substantially lower than 100 psecs have been published in the past… which in a layman’s eyes, refutes what you say about the lowest measurement floor being 100 psecs. In last months issue, a Classe product was measured at <10 psec (24-bit/48kHz) and 21 psec (16-bit 44kHz), as an example.
Perhaps I was expecting too much, but a score of 80% is not what I had expected to see.”
It is at this point I am reminded of an in person presentation by Ivor Teffenbaum , Managing Director of Linn Systems in the early 1980’s. He was demoing the venvarable Linn LP 12 turntable against their newest, more modest table (forgot the model number)
He clearly stated throughout this evening long demo that listening to recorded music should be about enjoying the experience so much that it drives you to want to go out and listen to live music. We all get so caught up in the ‘specs’ of gear/kit, we forget that if our foot’s a tappin, then the gear must be ok!
When I started this thread I chose to quote from the review the remarks that I felt might be of prime interest here. I’d like to comment on some of the reactions:
As regards the audio performance of the USB input, the ranking was no different from what I had expected. Until recently at least, designers have been consistently unsuccessful in getting the sound quality from USB to be in the same ballpark as AES/EBU, SPDIF (and Firewire). So kudos to Paul and others who have made progress towards removing the difference.
As regards the audio performance relative to an RME Fireface 800 audio interface connected to a Mac Mini, my reaction was very different - I was very pleasantly surprised.
I recently bought a Fireface 400 (very similar to the 800 but with fewer inputs and 25% cheaper), primarily to convert my LP collection to 24bit / 192 kHz for archiving. I chose it semi-blind as although it has a good track record, I could find no critical reviews of its audio performance as it comes from the semi-pro music-production market - it is not sold as a hi-fi product. I considered the Benchmark ADC but this costs nearly 3 x the FF400 cost, and I couldn’t really justify this as I have only about 300 LPs. Although it is a Firewire interface it can be used in a stand-alone mode as an ADC / DAC (it has a separate power supply and a memory to retain the I / O routings set up when connected to a computer). In archiving the LPs I monitored the output via the ‘phones output on the FF400 and it did sound at least as good as my previous monitoring via an MF Tri-vista DAC and MF X-CANv8p.
As regards the system cost, I guess it is a question of getting what you pay for. The Fireface 400 (and 800) are basically very ugly, very small (8"x5"x2”), utilitarian boxes covered back and front with sockets and switches. It has a simple display and dual-function source/volume control. The PWD looks very smart and has all the bells and whistles you are ever likely to want (or need): I’d certainly prefer the PWD in my listening room but realistically I may end up buying a Lens to work with my existing DAC.
David
P.S. Whatever you might think, I have no connections whatsoever with RME!
I am replacing my DL-III, Cullen Stage IV Mod for the PWD. I listened extensively to both (with and without the PWT) and I can tell you that the PWD is in a different league.
I am still curious about the jitter measurements quoted in the review - if they reflected only the USB interface or the overall lowest jitter measurements….anyone…??
Thanks for the explanation Paul. Regarding the PWD/Bridge, what will be the best suggested interface with a NAS or router (assuming that the Bridge may allow for WiFi) – USB, Ethernet, or WiFi? Or, will it even matter since the bridge will incorporate a digital lens?
Thanks…
Depends on what you’re streaming, but for high res stuff we probably would prefer Ethernet as opposed to wireless. The new Bridge will indeed incorporate a Digital Lens.
Thank you Paul for your answer to my questions - Thanks also to David and Timequest.
I hope I can hear the system soon in my country. Problem is I think there is no beta testing here in Europe (or at least not in Belgium).
I am pretty sure the sound will be great indeed because all i read from ps audio in this forum is a no-nonsense quest for sound purity and I have a Plinius amp and a pair of Martin Logan Summit speakers that really allows a system to reveal itself.
What I can already appreciate before listening to it is the beautiful design and the very high level of integration. I hope the bridge will be as good as expected and if the iPhone remote is confirmed it will be perfect.
Paul,
like Richard I’m very interested in the usb input, since I’ve spent some money to have a 100% fanless HTPC and I’m totally addicted to the room correction capabilities provided by some computer playback software.
I understand that the PWD usb input is a real step forward with respect to the DLIII and many other “old” DACs, but it looks like there is still some room for improvement, since it relies on a separate clock and the usb implementation is still Adaptive rather than Asynchronous.
I’d like to know if we can expect in the future a firmware update with a new implementation from CEntrace to improve the performance of the usb input, or if you have considered the possibility to produce a component like the bridge, to be put in the expansion port, with a *perfect* usb input, matching the level of the other components of the otherwise *perfect* wave dac
I have the same thoughts. There are good reasons to connect the dac to a computer rather than straight to the network. Seems a shame with a great product like this not to offer a state-of-the-art computer connection, be it usb or firewire or whatever.
Another review that I read (online magazine - sorry I can’t remember which magazine it was) was lamenting that the pair could only handle WAV files. Is this true, and if so will there be software updates to be able to handle other kinds of files? Thanks!!
Since you’re probably referring to my review at Stereomojo.com (it’s the only one out there of the final product after all the updates were completed). for now it does only playback WAV files on DVD - says so right in the manual. I have been told that the ability to read other formats is high on the list of priorities. As I outlined, it’s easy and free to convert any other format to WAV though and Chesky and Reference Recordings sell disks with hi-rez wavs that you can just stick into the PWT and play. I’ve talked to other companys who are working on doing the same. I just can’t say which ones - yet. Of course, the PWT does play CD’s and there’s lots more of them around than anything else. Now if it just played LP’s…..hehe
I am replacing my DL-III, Cullen Stage IV Mod for the PWD. I listened extensively to both (with and without the PWT) and I can tell you that the PWD is in a different league.
I am still curious about the jitter measurements quoted in the review - if they reflected only the USB interface or the overall lowest jitter measurements….anyone…??
Hi Timequest,
The review states: “Digital jitter (CD / Native): 250psec / 300psec” in the “Specifications” section and in the Lab report states: “Jitter is <100psec in all symmetrically upsampled modes (ie 48kHz to 96kHz/192kHz) but increases very slightly to a (perfectly acceptable) worse-case of 320psec with 96kHz data received by the PerfectWave DAC in native mode.”
Paul has already addressed the “native mode jitter” point in a previous response.
“However, results substantially lower than 100 psecs have been published in the past… which in a layman’s eyes, refutes what you say about the lowest measurement floor being 100 psecs. In last months issue, a Classe product was measured at <10 psec (24-bit/48kHz) and 21 psec (16-bit 44kHz), as an example.
Perhaps I was expecting too much, but a score of 80% is not what I had expected to see.”
It is at this point I am reminded of an in person presentation by Ivor Teffenbaum , Managing Director of Linn Systems in the early 1980’s. He was demoing the venvarable Linn LP 12 turntable against their newest, more modest table (forgot the model number)
He clearly stated throughout this evening long demo that listening to recorded music should be about enjoying the experience so much that it drives you to want to go out and listen to live music. We all get so caught up in the ‘specs’ of gear/kit, we forget that if our foot’s a tappin, then the gear must be ok!
My foot is awaiting my PWD!
I’m not sure what your point is Dave G… Seems like you are implying that reviews/specs are not what a purchasing decision should be based on. If that is the case, I agree. To further quote from my second post: “Anyway, this will not be (in any sense) a deal-killer for me as I will trust my own ears over any review…”
The only reason that I have not yet committed to a purchase is because I can’t get to hear a unit at this point in time… and even then, I may decide to wait for the bridge.
I am replacing my DL-III, Cullen Stage IV Mod for the PWD. I listened extensively to both (with and without the PWT) and I can tell you that the PWD is in a different league.
I am still curious about the jitter measurements quoted in the review - if they reflected only the USB interface or the overall lowest jitter measurements….anyone…??
Hi Timequest,
The review states: “Digital jitter (CD / Native): 250psec / 300psec” in the “Specifications” section and in the Lab report states: “Jitter is <100psec in all symmetrically upsampled modes (ie 48kHz to 96kHz/192kHz) but increases very slightly to a (perfectly acceptable) worse-case of 320psec with 96kHz data received by the PerfectWave DAC in native mode.”
Paul has already addressed the “native mode jitter” point in a previous response.
Regards
Russell
Thanks Russell.
Regardless of any technical/lab measurements, the PWT/PWD sounds wonderful and I am really having a hard time containing my anticipation for the arrival of my PWD.
I understand that jitter cannot be completely eliminated, but from a layman perspective I was under the impression that the combination of the I2S and Digital Lens technologies would provide for extremely low measurements (i.e.: new standards) [my words]. It appears that these two technologies are not an effective substitute (strictly regarding jitter) to up-sampling. The bottom line is the fact that native mode does sound better than up-sampled modes; and while that is good enough for me, I would like to better understand why jitter still passes through the I2S configuration and the Digital Lens at 300/psec.
Paul,
like Richard I’m very interested in the usb input, since I’ve spent some money to have a 100% fanless HTPC and I’m totally addicted to the room correction capabilities provided by some computer playback software.
I understand that the PWD usb input is a real step forward with respect to the DLIII and many other “old” DACs, but it looks like there is still some room for improvement, since it relies on a separate clock and the usb implementation is still Adaptive rather than Asynchronous.
I’d like to know if we can expect in the future a firmware update with a new implementation from CEntrace to improve the performance of the usb input, or if you have considered the possibility to produce a component like the bridge, to be put in the expansion port, with a *perfect* usb input, matching the level of the other components of the otherwise *perfect* wave dac
As always, thank you very much for your replies.
Well, as you probably know, we popped for the license fee on USB so we now have the way cool 96kHz/24 bit capability going directly to I2S in the PWD. Despite what has been said, this is stiull about as good as it’s going to get on USB. We’ll include the same USB input on the Lens as well - and it’ll output I2S.
USB is never going to be as good as other means of getting data out of a computer, but if you’re going to use it, this should be pretty darned close to as good as it gets.
